Author Topic: Spit V vs Nikki  (Read 1544 times)

Offline streetstang

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Spit V vs Nikki
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2005, 04:54:39 PM »
Got some (Probably over a hundred) awsome films of Nomak and I dueling in spits. Not sure how he'd like me posting them. Also quite a few of shane and I. If its cool with shane I'll post them. Redefines the term knife figh, stall fight and any other ungodly slow turning, angles nail biter fight you can think of.

If I can get a Niki slow enough to get my flaps down in a spitV hes a dead man. You should never think of a fight as a turn fight. More so of an angles fight. There are times that I am turning not to get a shot right away, but set him up, or more so myself up for a shot a few turns later.

The more "circles" you turn with anyone the less advantage you will have. Always try and keep it an angles fight one that sets you up, or him, so you can get shot.

AND like the other guys said, Rudder makes a world of difference. Not just for getting a shot off but for cutting your angles in half and getting that nose around quicker which will be followed by the rest of your plane.

Offline SlapShot

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Spit V vs Nikki
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2005, 05:49:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
anyone ever notice how long the spit takes to put flaps down or bring them in?

if I recall it is around 20+- seconds to go from in to out and 20+- seconds to go from out to in, if you're a using flaps you definitely need to use throttle control.........


That was true in AH I ... but in AH II the flaps seem to deploy quicker ... at least to me they do.
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Offline Roscoroo

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Spit V vs Nikki
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2005, 05:52:39 PM »
I'm pritty Shure Nomak wouldnt mind, He's one of the best Advanced Teachers here .  he's hit me over the head a few times and pointed out my mistakes to me .. :D
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2005, 05:57:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by streetstang
Got some (Probably over a hundred) awsome films of Nomak and I dueling in spits. Not sure how he'd like me posting them. Also quite a few of shane and I. If its cool with shane I'll post them. Redefines the term knife figh, stall fight and any other ungodly slow turning, angles nail biter fight you can think of.

If I can get a Niki slow enough to get my flaps down in a spitV hes a dead man. You should never think of a fight as a turn fight. More so of an angles fight. There are times that I am turning not to get a shot right away, but set him up, or more so myself up for a shot a few turns later.

The more "circles" you turn with anyone the less advantage you will have. Always try and keep it an angles fight one that sets you up, or him, so you can get shot.

AND like the other guys said, Rudder makes a world of difference. Not just for getting a shot off but for cutting your angles in half and getting that nose around quicker which will be followed by the rest of your plane.


Excellent post Morph ... so very true.

Check with Dave .. I would love to see those films !!!
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Offline RedTop

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Spit V vs Nikki
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2005, 06:09:33 PM »
Tex....

I would suggest also riding with some of these guys that fly Spit V's as well. I rode with Slap one night. MAN , he bout made me sick:lol

There are a few dedicated Spit V drivers here that I'm sure wouldn't mind you tagging along.

Just an Idea anyway.:)
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Offline SirLoin

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Spit V vs Nikki
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2005, 07:11:58 AM »
It's close but Spit5 wins in turns..but NIKI has ability to disengage and extend/climb/rope...

So you are right..Niki does own Spit5's.
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Offline Widewing

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Spit V vs Nikki
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2005, 10:40:01 AM »
There are several aircraft that can give the SpitV a hard time in a turn fight (Either Zeke, FM2, Hurricane and the Ki-84), but the N1K2 is not one of them, unless you are not using the Spit to its full capability.

My suggestion is that you visit the TA and look for an experienced pilot to play with. Any of the trainers will help out and you can find Badboy, Inyo or any number of MA regulars there almost on a daily basis. Before you fly a SpitV, fly the N1K2 against Spits first. This will aid you in seeing it weaknesses firsthand against the SpitV.

A common problem I see is that many people don't turn long enough to gain the advantage. They make flat 90 degree turns, and then do those silly little slow rolls, which does nothing but allow their pursuer to re-establish a gun solution.

I suspect that you may be concentrating more on being defensive, rather than offensive. Many years ago, when I began competitive boxing a trainer gave me the best advice I ever received. He said, "stop worrying about what the other guy is trying to do to you and start thinking about what you are going to do to him." In simple terms, fight your fight and not the other guy's fight. Think offense, not defence. Take the fight to him whenever possible. In the case of the N1K2, you need to do what Slapshot recommends, force him into a low-speed maneuver fight, where the SpitV will dominate. As anyone who has good ACM skills will tell you, the secret is as simple as equalizing E states. Again, as Slapshot stated, there is nothing as dangerous as a Co-E, Co-alt SpitV.

It's possible to write pages on how to accomplish equalizing E, but the best way to understand this is to watch flims and to actually fly. That is why I suggest the TA, which I prefer to the DA because mistakes will not result in time wasted getting another fighter. In the TA, you simply disengage, separate and re-engage again. You can do this until one of you runs out of ammo and/or gas. Film every fight. Review the film and watch it from the other guy's plane. You will be better able to see your errors from that vantage point.

One final point. Keeping the enemy in view is extremely important. Concentrate on keeping the enemy within your field of vision. If you lose sight of him, you will probably lose the fight.

A typical example of this happened last evening. One of the MA regulars dropped by the TA to practice after getting clobbered in the MA. He flies the Yak-9U almost exclusively. So, I grabbed an F4U-1 and we squared off. On the merge, I went below his nose, then pulled a vertical reverse, using flaps to really tighten it up coming over the top. He never saw me, having lost sight almost immediately. By the time he finally spotted me, I was 400 yards behind and pouring fire into his Yak.

Having mentioned the F4U, let me deviate from the topic a bit.

I have a nephew who lives with us while attending a nearby State college. He became facinated watching me play Aces High and asked if he could try it. Sure, why not? So, he spent some afternoons after classes in the TA, learning the basics of flying. In the MA, he tends to stick to gunning, buffs and GVs. When he does fly a fighter, he usually gets his butt handed to him. Since he uses my account (for now at least), I can't take him to the TA and tutor him. I usually coach him, sitting alongside at the desk. A week ago or so, he took up an F4U for a Jabo sortie and got shot down before he got anywhere near an enemy base. Basically, he did everything wrong from tower to tower. In fact, the only thing he did right was to turn on the film recorder. First, he took the F4U-1. This fighter can carry only one bomb. Therefore, he had little choice but to take a lot of gas, 100% in this case. Nothing degrades the F4U like excessive fuel does. Next, he flies a route that will take him over a friendly base under constant attack. That surely means that there will be enemy fighters there. Finally, the slow climb rate of the F4U-1 means that he will pass this base without much altitude.

So, climbing thru 8k, a Knit 109 shows up, probably up at 15k or higher. However, my nephew doesn't notice until the 109 is nearly above him. Instead of dumping his bomb, and establishing some speed, he turns towards the 109 and continues to climb! Well, the 109 flies over and reverses. So, my nephew now makes a flat, right hand turn. And he stays in a right turn! He dumps the bomb (finally), but continues the turn, around and around. This 109 turned out to be a 109F-4. A light F4U-1 can turn fight it, IF the pilot of the F4U has some skill. But, a heavy F4U, flown by a noob without a clue was a dead duck. I believe the 109 pilot was Drediock, a frequent and worthy adversary in the MA. My nephew's right-hand spiral prolonged the mismatch far longer than I expected. The 109 could not gain a shooting solution until the F4U ran out of altitude and had to dodge trees and hills. At that point Drediock got him.

Reviewing the film I could see his mistakes. Most of these where typical of a noob. Tactically, he did everything wrong. He also failed to simply dive down to the friendly base, just a couple of miles away from the outset. When the fight slowed down to below 250 mph, he didn't use his flaps. Like the P-38, the F4U can use flaps to great advantage. I also saw very little looking around. Only twice did he look to see where the 109 was once he began turning.

Unfortunately, my nephew deleted the film, or I would post it. There's much to be gained by watching lousy flying too.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Kweassa

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Spit V vs Nikki
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2005, 11:03:16 PM »
On the other hand, its true that the SpitV has lost some of its low speed stability in AH2, which makes it a tad more difficult for the SpitV to outturn a N1K2.

 In AH1, you could slam down the rudder and pull as tight as possible, which in many cases will simply flat-out outturn the N1K2 in radius.

 However, in AH2, meeting a stall while the rudder is fully deflected often causes a devastating spin for the Spitfire.

 Usually this spin is deadly when sudden large control input involved, but even when in a slow and steady turn, if you are using lots of rudder and the Spit 'slips' during the turn(meeting a temporary stall), its gonna take a bit of more time to recover than in AH1. If such mistakes continuously occur, it just might give a good N1K2 pilot enough edge to outmaneuver a SpitV.

 So, all in all, the effectiveness of sudden, instantaneous type of turns have been greatly reduced in AH2. AH2 turn fights lean a bit more to true-type prolonged, sustained turn fights. It takes a bit longer time, and much more concentration in part of the AH2 Spitfire pilot to achieve the same results as in AH1.

Offline WMLute

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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2005, 08:52:00 AM »
If i'm in the niki, I usually can out turn a spit V.  Takes some work.  REALLY depends on the nme pilot tho'.

BUT if I am flying a spit V, I totally own the niki, doesn't matter who the pilot is (usually)
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Offline thrila

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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2005, 10:00:37 AM »
The spits flaps now deploy very quickly, no more than 2 seconds.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Spit V vs Nikki
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2005, 12:09:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by thrila
The spits flaps now deploy very quickly, no more than 2 seconds.



timed with stop watch, average of 5 up & 5 down, I got 2.98 seconds for each direction.........

for all Spit variants, all Spits only have 1 flap setting either all out or all in....

Niki deploys flaps just as fast if not quicker, and has 5 flap settings....


thanks for nudging me thrila to go check it :)
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Offline Roscoroo

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Spit V vs Nikki
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2005, 02:32:45 PM »
i still think the resulting drag of the spits flaps are too much ,along w/ being to slow exspecially when you need to regain speed  .   (flaps would be a last ditch effort )   but i will give them a try again ... (i still see Lev beat me with his wonder turn everynow and then  ,and it just doesnt seam natural from the angle of attacks we are at ..  but this could just be destorted from my angle of view )
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Offline Soda

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Spit V vs Nikki
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2005, 05:02:56 PM »
In AH1 I used to think the N1K vs. SpitV was almost a dead heat, depended on pilot who could push the furthest.  In AH2, I think the extra power the Spit V got tends to push the advantage to them.  Also, N1K used to make more of the D800 type shots in AH1 which made it seem deadlier, now with typically shorter shooting ranges I think the Spit probably ends the fight more than the N1K.

Offline Nomak

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« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2005, 09:34:27 PM »
Heyas Jeff , Slappy , Roscoroo and everyone else ......

Feel free to post any films u have of us Morph.....  Just dont only post the ones of you winning ;-)

I wish I had all my films still. :(

Im back flying BTW.  IL2/FB/AEP/Pacific Fighters has gotten old for me.

c yas all up!

Dave

Offline Nomak

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« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2005, 10:03:28 PM »
I should mention that I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS Licked my chops when a N1K decided to try to turn with my SpitV.

Its all about time in the saddle.  Be paitent.