Author Topic: Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you (Read 6491 times)

ATA · « **Reply #360 on:** February 10, 2005, 05:33:50 PM »

No disrespect to anyone,what was the deal with the guy who landed on Red plaza in the midle of Moskow,how come he didnt get shot down?

Boroda · « **Reply #361 on:** February 11, 2005, 11:56:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Yes, outside Soviet airspace. The ICAO rules then and now are 12 miles offshore.

RB/RC tracks were planned a minimum of 20 miles offshore in my time. It was the same IIRC for Olmstead.

With the gear they had to wear about 30-40 minutes if in the ocean.

If in a raft, far, far longer.

They were not shot down over land. There was then and is now tracking procedures/information available.

McKone said they were picked up almost right away by a destroyer. IIRC, he said he thought it was a planned shootdown and the MiGs waited until they were over a naval group doing maneuvers.

Toad, every PVO pilot of the Cold war era that I know or read books by them - they all say one thing. RB-47s routinely violated Soviet airspace, were intercepted by MiGs, and MiG pilots almost never got permission to open fire. The chain of command was too long, so during the flight with gunnery solution ready (10-15 minutes) they couldn't get a permission from Defence Minister or even Politburo.

Your aquaintance was not so lucky.

Someone has to pay. Sorry for that people anyway. I understand that they had their orders. Just as a MiG pilot, who finally got a permission to fire at the enemy that he have seen many times unable to do anything w/o direct orders to destroy it.

Denying the fact that US recon planes violated Soviet airspace regularly is silly.

Again we come to a simple answer to a question of who was the aggressor.

Boroda · « **Reply #362 on:** February 11, 2005, 11:59:41 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ATA
No disrespect to anyone,what was the deal with the guy who landed on Red plaza in the midle of Moskow,how come he didnt get shot down?

Rust's landing on Red Square resulted in great purges in Soviet military command. many people lost their positions, including defence minister Sokolov and PVO (Air-defence) commander Koldunov (BTW top Yak ace in WWII, 44 personal victories IIRC).

Rust's Cessna was followed by PVO network, Soviet interceptors watched him but again - didn't get a permission to open fire.

There is a version that it was Gorbachev's provocation to change top military commanders and replace them with "trusted comrades".

Suave · « **Reply #363 on:** February 11, 2005, 12:30:52 PM »

Wow Estel, I did not know that the soviet army was a stabalizing factor of the Afghan government.

But now that I think about it, a lot of the neighbors of the USSR had their governments stabalized by the soviet army.

Boroda · « **Reply #364 on:** February 11, 2005, 12:46:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Suave
Wow Estel, I did not know that the soviet army was a stabalizing factor of the Afghan government.

But now that I think about it, a lot of the neighbors of the USSR had their governments stabalized by the soviet army.

Hmm.

Pretty obvious way of thinking IMHO: what happened to Afghanistan after Soviet Army left?

Western logics is even stranger then woman's logics. Common sence as a completely new, unknown concept.

Suave · « **Reply #365 on:** February 11, 2005, 12:57:04 PM »

Are you implying that I said it wasn't logical to expect tyrannical stalinism imposed by military force to be a stabalizing factor in the victim state ?

Boroda · « **Reply #366 on:** February 11, 2005, 01:00:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Suave
Are you implying that I said it wasn't logical to expect tyrannical stalinism imposed by military force to be a stabalizing factor in the victim state ?

Complete misunderstanding again.

Go check something about King's regime in Afghanistan. Especially why there was no such thing as "blood revenge" there.

Toad · « **Reply #367 on:** February 11, 2005, 01:03:03 PM »

What a load of ........ stuff.

Do this for me. Compare the number of Soviet recon aircraft shot down by the US during the Cold War with the number of US recon aircraft shot down by the Soviets during the Cold War.

Oh.. wait... ours always violated your airspace but yours never violated ours.

Toad · « **Reply #368 on:** February 11, 2005, 05:54:29 PM »

Boroda, I don't know if you can get CNN or if you can get a delayed transmission but an incident similar to what we're discussing will be discussed on TV tonight.

There is a program on CNN tonight (Friday Feb 11th) at 10 Eastern, 9 PM Central about the RB-29 shootdown June 1952 off-shore from Vladivostock. Includes some new material based on Russian sources and an interview with Charlotte Busch Mitnik, the sister of aircraft commander Major Samuel Busch.

If you can get it, I'd love to hear your Pravda version.

My CNN listing isn't showing this as the program though ;(

Boroda · « **Reply #369 on:** February 12, 2005, 12:11:34 PM »

http://www.warlib.ru/index.php?id=000032

Keep waving stars and stripes.

American planes invaded Soviet airspace as far as Novgorod-Smolensk-Kiev in June 1954. That three RB-45s were suspected of carrying nuclear weapons.

The very fact that we are talking now is a reflection of good will of Soviet side.

Our cause was right.

252 Amerian airmen were shot down during recon missions in Soviet airspace in 1950-70. 24 killed, 90 stayed alive, 136 are missing in action. Toad, you were nothing but a disposable material for your command.

Unfortunately we don't have CNN here since maybe 1995. Will they repeat this show? Is there some way to know when it will be repeated? I can ask firends to record it for me from sattelite.

Toad · « **Reply #370 on:** February 12, 2005, 12:15:13 PM »

Let's say your historical record of all those incidents doesn't match ours.

Unfortunately, neither does the wreckage found in international waters from some of your shootdowns.

As far as the CNN show, they didn't broadcast on that subject. It was just wrong info apparently I got from a friend who also flew Recon.

The idea that every aircraft shot down was over your territory or territorial waters is more denial on your part.

Some were.. like Powers in the U2. Most were not.

Boroda · « **Reply #371 on:** February 12, 2005, 12:34:39 PM »

Toad, technically KAL-007 (if it was a 747 not an RC-135) was shot down over Soviet island of Moneron. A tiny rock in the sea. Shot down after flying several thousand km over Soviet land. The wreck felt down in international waters.

I insist that most of the invading planes were shot down in Soviet airspace. Understanding Soviet military makes it obvious that ordering an attack against an enemy plane in international airspace was impossible.

BTW, as far as I can read between the lines - above you already admitted that you have crossed Soviet border on your recon missions... I am happy that you were lucky and our command didn't have the guts to shoot your plane down.

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #372 on:** February 12, 2005, 01:05:38 PM »

About Stalin he was an big Ahole.

But without him its questionable the russians won the war.

It was fire against fire (hitler vs Stalin)

genozaur · « **Reply #373 on:** February 12, 2005, 10:56:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AirWölf
Well, the Taliban Simply defeated Russia. Russia gave up because of the money it costed and the losses it had. Russia wasn't gaining anything in Afghanistan. Besides, we were helping the Taliban at the time so Russia had no chance. I would also like to know, If Russia is so great and their technology is so good, what happened to all the USSR's submarines in the past? Like Kursk, and the many other ships that are now lying at the bottom o the sea due to countless errors. Russia soesn't overly check their equiipment before use like to US does. Our tech is reliable. How about Russia? Oh and might I add. Does Russia still have many "Ass-tronauts" i mean Astronauts floating around in Space? Or does Russia deny all that too? Just wandering.

The word is 'cosmonaut' in Russian.
The word "ass-tronaut" was originally reserved for the Americans.

genozaur · « **Reply #374 on:** February 12, 2005, 11:09:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AirWölf
Oh and if I can find the pic i saw on the net not long ago. I will post it. it's a photo taken of a Russian tank with soldiers on it laughing while dragging a chechen down the street by a rope tied to the tank. oh but Russia isn't cruel at all.

Was that the body of the dead terrorist or was he still alive ?