Author Topic: Who decides? THEY do! (Read 3912 times)

WMLute · « **Reply #180 on:** February 17, 2005, 06:17:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vulcan
As for the loaded gun question, well, I think that I'll leave that. Its pretty obvious the USA is a different place and a lot more dangerous and violent than say NZ or Australia, so you have to do what you have to do to defend yourselves I guess.

Here are some key findings about Australian crime trends for the period of 1995 (pre-ban) to 2001 (post-ban):

The rate of assault has increased steadily from 563 victims per 100,000 people in 1995 to 779 per 100,000 people in 2001.

In 2001 the rate for robbery peaked at 136 per 100,000 people—the highest recorded since 1995.

The rate of sexual assault was 86 per 100,000 people, which is higher than any previous year.

Here is the comparison in violent crime trends between Australia and the United States for the period of 1995 to 2001, calculating rates by dividing the number of crimes reported by the population figures. (Negative trends are in parentheses.)

Homicide: AUS – (11%) US – (32%)
Assault: AUS – 39% US – (24%)
Rape: AUS – 19% US – (14%)
Robbery: AUS – 70% US – (33%)

It is interesting to note that violent crime rates are higher in Australia. Following are selected comparisons for violent crime rates per 100,000 people in 2001. While homicide is lower and robbery is similar, assault and rape occur more than twice as often in Australia, proving that when the physically weaker are barred from possessing the best tool for self-defense, they are rendered helpless. As with England, women pay the price when politicians use tragedy as an excuse to eliminate armed threat to their power.

Homicide: AUS – 1.8 US – 5.6
Assault: AUS – 779 US – 319
Rape: AUS – 86 US – 32
Robbery: AUS – 136 US – 146

Mirroring England’s demonstration of John Lott’s principle of the substitution effect, we find that reverse substitution is also in effect in Australia: since victims are unarmed, criminals will not expend the extra effort to plan burglary.
The one exception to the substitution principle is that crimes against business has increased, as the ''rate of other theft (including shoplifting) has increased by 32% since 1995.'' This excludes motor vehicle theft, which ''has remained stable since 1995.'' Compare this with the 20% drop in property crime in the USA.

To summarize, we see a dramatic rise in violent crime in Australia since the gun ban, along with a relatively flat trend in property crime rates, demonstrating the criminals’ understanding of the basic principles of cost/benefit analysis, choosing the quicker method of confronting an unarmed victim. At the same time, the USA saw significant drops in both violent and property crime rates, proving the adage that an armed society is a polite--and safer--society.

http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=8073

Soooo....... Explain that Vulcan. USA is a far, FAR safter place than Aus, BECAUSE the citizens are armed.

(edit) another good link for info on violent crime rates in AU vs. the U.S.
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html
(here's a highlight for ya')
WND reported that, although lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story:

Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.
Assaults are up 8.6 percent.
Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent.
In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent.
In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily.
There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly.

Elfie · « **Reply #181 on:** February 17, 2005, 07:19:18 PM »

Now you've done it Lute. Soon someone will be along to *disprove* your stats by using the *gun homicide* rhetoric heh.

bustr · « **Reply #182 on:** February 17, 2005, 08:24:40 PM »

Elfie,

Whats better is they will use death statistics for children in the U.S. 1 to 21 years old. And you know them 19 year olds just keep getting in the way of demon possed semi autos that jump out of closet shelfs and slaughter them for no apparent reason.

It's kinda like the rape statistic that 4 in 5 coed's will be raped each year on college campuses in the United States. Thats how the sexual harrasment codes got empowered on american campuses.

Numbers always figure, liers always figure the lie. There is usually 1 major college or university per state in the US. Average 20,000 students. Say half are female. So 4 in 5 out of 10,000 will be raped in the 50 states each year alone by these figures. The ultimate number of rapes per year on just these campuses if true would be greater than the FBI overall stats per year. Throw in every campus in each state with these numbers and they would rival the 2 million rapes of men by men in our prisons each year.

The anti gun lobbies do the same thing. Yearly in the U.S., children 1 to 12 deaths are less than 100 to fire arms, accidental or other wise. I think last year was 68?? Very few, less than 8 are children rummaging around in someones home and finding a gun. I think it was 2 or 4 last year. The numbers have always been that small for children in the United States. Anti gunners in the U.S. and abroad lie and expand the numbers to gain histerical emotional bye in. Chances are more adult american citizens die yearly because their guns were stored safely to protect the children.

Vulcan · « **Reply #183 on:** February 17, 2005, 09:04:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Maverick
Vulcan I am still waiting to hear your answer to the questions I posed to you. I figure if you don't answer that is tacit admission you are merely a troller and unworthy of further consideration.

I you want the answers to our democratic processes go look em up on the internet. Submissions are accepted from all.

Yes a cupboard, a locked cupboard at that. Thats right the gun nuts here are getting their nickers in a twist because 2.3% of gun owners in NSW, Aussie, probably couldn't even get as far as storing their weapons in a lockable cupboard.

Vulcan · « **Reply #184 on:** February 17, 2005, 09:18:44 PM »

Yeaaaaaaaaaaahup the USA crime rates are dropping....

Must be a load of politcal prisoners in there.

The problem with those statistics is that the differences in the way crimes are reports AND how many are reported. I've no idea what the difference is but seeing the USA statistics show a drop in reported crimes versus a huge increase in incarceration I'd say the median reported crime has increased - end result is stats that look good on paper but show up bad in other areas.

We could argue the reported stats all day long but bums in prison is your final figure

Maverick · « **Reply #185 on:** February 17, 2005, 09:20:30 PM »

Thanks vulcan, you just confirmed what I thought. No reason to waste any time on you, you can't come up with any answers, just snide comments. Sad waste of bandwidth for you to be here.

I gave you your chance to state your own position and you couldn't hack it. I suppose that would mean you would have to take a risk. Much safer just to belittle others instead.

BTW no one has yet provided confirmation of what the cupboard has to be equiped with from either NZ or Australia.

Vulcan · « **Reply #186 on:** February 17, 2005, 09:29:54 PM »

Hey wow look different stats:

Quote

The FBI estimates that 72 of every 100,000 females in the United States wereraped last year. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Statistics, 1996.)

and

Quote

One of the most startling aspects of sex crimes is how many go unreported. The most common reasons given by women for not reporting these crimes are the belief that it is a private or personal matter and the fear of reprisal from the assailant.

Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994)

The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials

Now if I was really paranoid I could say crime victims in the US are too scared to report crimes from fear of retribution by gun wielding criminals.

Masherbrum · « **Reply #187 on:** February 17, 2005, 10:52:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vulcan
Now if I was really paranoid I could say crime victims in the US are too scared to report crimes from fear of retribution by gun wielding criminals.

Hey Kiwi, WHAT DOES YOUR LAST SENTENCE HAVE TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT OF IMPROPER GUN STORAGE?!!! When did Criminal activity become the topic? I tell you what, you're so hell bent on "being right", you lost initiative in the debate. Sit down child.

Karaya

PS - Maverick, he doesnt get it.

WMLute · « **Reply #188 on:** February 18, 2005, 12:58:34 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vulcan
Yeaaaaaaaaaaahup the USA crime rates are dropping....

We could argue the reported stats all day long but bums in prison is your final figure

Ok. Let's use the exact SAME website you got your info. Geeez talk about selective facts.

Lowest homicide rates since the 1960's

This is yet another "dodge" by you. Crime rates are down in the U.S. PERIOD. Can't argue that, it's a fact. Crime rates are UP in AU. Can't argue that. It's a fact. There is nothing that supports guns being limited in AU to a drop in crime. In fact, quite the opposite. You can NOT back up your position (because it's false of course) so you "Dodge" to prison population, which has no bearing what so ever on the topic at hand.

Not sure where you gained your ability for cognitive reasoning, but it's sorely lacking.

Here's a what if. What if some guy broke into my home, I had my firearm on a shelf in my bedroom closet, and they stole it. THEN as he was walking home he saw a bear attacking a toddler. He then uses the stolen gun to kill the bear, and saves the child. WOOOT. Thanks to my gun being stored on a closet shelf, another child has been saved from being mauled by a bear. Had said gun been stored in a safe, that poor child would be bear poop right now. Because of this, we should outlaw locking up firearms.
(snork) Sound stupid? Well.... look in the mirror bub. You've been spouting similar drivel for this whole thread.

And about your LAST post, the one about rapes. Well... looking at crime trends, (from 1995 to 2001) the U.S. has DROPPED 14% in rapes, but AU has gone UP 19%. Just wanted to point out that you are FAR more likely to get raped in AU than in the U.S.

Oh and Elfie, in re. to gun homicide rate, the 2nd link in my last post says it best.

Indeed, information on Handgun Control's Center to Prevent Handgun Violence website actually praises Australia and attempts to portray Australia as a much safer country following strict gun-control measures passed by lawmakers in 1996.

"The next time a credulous friend or acquaintance tells you that Australia actually suffered more crime when they got tougher on guns ... offer him a Foster's, and tell him the facts," the CPHV site says.

"In 1998, the rate at which firearms were used in murder, attempted murder, assault, sexual assault and armed robbery went down. In that year, the last for which statistics are available, the number of murders involving a firearm declined to its lowest point in four years," says CPHV.

However, the International Crime Victims Survey notes that overall crime victimization Down Under rose from 27.8 percent of the population in 1988, to 28.6 percent in 1991 to over 30 percent in 1999.

Advocates of less gun control in the U.S. say the drop in gun murder rates was more than offset by the overall victimization increase. Also, they note that Australia leads the ICVS report in three of four categories -- burglary (3.9 percent of the population), violent crime (4.1 percent) and overall victimization (about 31 percent).

Oh yeah... AU sounds like a MUCH safer place to live in. IF you a criminal that is.

Excel1 · « **Reply #189 on:** February 18, 2005, 05:19:31 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Maverick
Thanks vulcan, you just confirmed what I thought. No reason to waste any time on you, you can't come up with any answers, just snide comments. Sad waste of bandwidth for you to be here.

I gave you your chance to state your own position and you couldn't hack it. I suppose that would mean you would have to take a risk. Much safer just to belittle others instead.

BTW no one has yet provided confirmation of what the cupboard has to be equiped with from either NZ or Australia.

Maverick those regulations for securing fireams in the home that Vulcan posted apply to NZ. The Aussie regs may be similar, but I don't know.

The cupboard only has to have a lock on the door and be secure enough to prevent kids getting access to the guns inside and also be a deterance to thieves. This type of storage( including lockable gun racks) is legal for the vast majority of guns in NZ, which are un-registered, - shotguns and rifles. There is no limit on the number of un-registersd guns that an owner can posess but there is some restrictions on the guns themselves. Shotguns must be at least 30" in length. Self loading rifles can't have any of the following- mag capacity greater than 7 rounds, freestanding pistol grip, bayonet lug or a colapsable stock. Many assault rifles have been modded to comply because it avoids the hassle and costs of registration... but the result is often a smurfy gun.

Excel

Scherf · « **Reply #190 on:** February 18, 2005, 06:59:57 AM »

The ICVS clearly demonstrates that Japanese bicycle owners need firearms.

Stop the madness!

Elfie · « **Reply #191 on:** February 18, 2005, 10:30:24 AM »

Bustr I know all about how the gun control nuts manipulate the facts and tell outright lies. I really didnt know about the rape thing on college campuses though.

Lute, my comment about gun crime was directed at one individual who shall remain nameless unless he shows up in this thread. He has stated more than once he only cares about gun crime. Which is pretty rediculous really. Whats the difference if you get robbed by a knife wielding criminal or a gun wielding criminal? You have lost property either way.

lazs2 · « **Reply #192 on:** February 18, 2005, 10:32:05 AM »

sherf... I can't decide for people if they need a firearm or not but I do feel that it is best that they have the choice.

A locked up gun is pretty useless. I lock up most of my guns because they are valuable. One or two are near me and loaded. they are up high enough and in a conditon that would make them far less easy for a child to get ahold of and use than the knives in my butchers block on the counter byu the stove top.

Not teaching children gun safety in schools is the biggest mistake we are making in the whole firearms issue. The NRA has the best instructors in the world and would do it for free. They are banned from helping save your children by the anti gun nuts.

I see no reason for banning one type of gun or another.

I see no reason for safe storage laws but can see where they would cause harm. It can not be proven that they have saved one single child here in the states... point is... children dying from unsafe gun storage in the states is such a small number that it is laughable. Woory about em tipping over a lamp and being killed a lot more and your energies will be better spent.. Yep... pass a law that lets OSHA come to your house and check all furniture for tipping hazard... next... work on those 5 gallon buckets.. kds drown in em at an allarming rate despite the little cartoon of a toddler stuck in one with a line through it that nanny mandated on every bucket.

lastly... to hear people who know nothing of firearms tell us what it safe firearm handling and what is not is beyond laughable. Like my 3 year old granddaughter making up laws for safe sheep shearing in NZ.

actually... I think I have a different idea of what sheep are getting sheared in NZ than they do anyway.

lazs

Maverick · « **Reply #193 on:** February 18, 2005, 12:37:07 PM »

Excel1,

Thanks for the info. I figured the one who originally posted the NZ info might be able to provide a link. What it comes down to is he in unable to stand up for his convictions or even state them. As I said, he is a troller and beneath notice.

I am still waiting for information regarding the "improper storage" that caused several thousand firearms (and other weapons whatever they were) to be confiscated and destroyed that was noted in the article. There is no criteria posted about that article yet.

The idea of voluntary turn ins is a bit questionable in my mind. How voluntary is it when a law is passed saying you will be prosecuted if you do not turn them in? Being threatened with imprisonment is hardly a voluntary incentive to my way of thinking.

Excel1 · « **Reply #194 on:** February 19, 2005, 05:17:35 AM »

Lazs
How would you prove that American parents who store their guns under lock and key have not saved the lives of at least some kids ?

300? million population= lots of kids+ lots of guns. By the law of averages safe gun storage must have saved the lives of some kids. But how do you show that as a statistic?- the kids are still alive, the guns are still secure. There's nothing to count. Maybe a figure can be estimated. It could surprise you.

Keeping guns under lock and key in the home is a fairly recent thing in NZ. The regulatinons were introduced in the 1990's, and it was mostly the police that wanted them. They just got fed up with dealing with criminals armed with guns stolen out of the homes of legal gun owners. The cops had a point. Anyone breaking into my home wouldnt have needed to bring a gun they could have just used one of mine when they got here.

In the US criminals probably have access to plenty of guns excluding the ones they steal in burglaries from homes, so the gun storage regs that we have probably wouldn't have any real benefit in the US as far as keeping guns out of the hands of criminals is concerned .But in NZ the criminals main source of guns is from burglaries of legal gun owners homes.So the regs have had a positive effect here- leaner pickings for the crims, happier cops, and less ammunition for the anti-gun brigade to use against us. The down-side for gun owners has been minimal- the cost off a safe or gunrack, or a lock for a cupboard door.

And I agree with you on the banning of guns based on their type. But it doesn't only happen here or in Australia. Have you tried to buy a .50 cal rifle latley ? It's a pretty big assault rifle aint it.

Excel