Author Topic: Low Angle of Attack Turns  (Read 1153 times)

Offline Lephturn

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Low Angle of Attack Turns
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2000, 08:43:00 AM »
flakbait,

Jump into the TA and holler.  I'm sure any of the trainers would be glad to be the target for you to demonstrate this move.  I know I would.    We're good target drones. <G>

Also Andy, remember that netlag is a big factor here.  When flakbait pulls up some to shoot the target, the target won't "see" that action until it's too late, so it will look like flakbait is diving right in front of his nose.  Net lag will really mess with perceptions in any high closure situation.  It would be interesting to film this from both perspectives and then look at the films, I think it is the only way to see what's going on in this situation.

BTW, the spell checker wants to change flakbait to "fleabite".  LOL.  

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"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

Offline 54Ed

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Low Angle of Attack Turns
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2000, 12:06:00 AM »
A few random thoughts on AoA and vertical maneuvers.  Please forgive me, but I do like to chat about aerodynamics:

AoA is defined as the angle between the wing chord line and the relative wind.  

A plane must have a positive AoA to generate lift, so anytime a plane is flying it has AoA.  Airspeed and AoA determine the size of the lift vector.    

You turn by pointing the lift vector where you want to go, and increasing the size of the lift vector.  You do this by pulling the stick, which increases the AoA.

Greater AoA means greater induced drag.  Greater induced drag means you lose more E.

Put it all together:  to turn, you bank and pull the stick.  Pulling the stick increases the AoA, which increases the lift vector, pushing the plane in the direction you want to go.  But it also increases induced drag, which bleeds Energy.

What can you do about this?  Some simple rules:

1.  Turn gentle.  Slower turns require less force = less AoA = less drag = more E.

2.  Turn at cornering velocity.  If you are going faster, you have to pull harder to get the same radius of turn.  In most late-WWII fighters, cornering velocity is around 210 mph.  Anything faster, you are wasting E if you try to turn hard.

3.  Turn in the vertical, as explained by several guys above.  This helps you two ways.  First, you get gravity on your side, helping you to turn instead of working against you.  Second, pulling vertical puts you closer to cornering velocity, which means less wasted energy in your turns.  

So, bottom line is this: When you dive for the attack, you'll be fast.  If you turn hard, you'll bleed your energy.  Pull gently up and exchange that airspeed for altitude, until you are near cornering velocity.  Then turn.  Or go completely vertical with a hammerhead or humpty-bump.  Once you have turned in the desired direction, exchange altitude for airspeed, and repeat.

Offline Lephturn

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Low Angle of Attack Turns
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2000, 04:16:00 PM »
I gotta know....

What the heck is a humpty-bump?


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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
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"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

Offline flakbait

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Low Angle of Attack Turns
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2000, 05:50:00 PM »
I rarely pull hard turns over 300mph. Once at or below 250mph I will haul back on the stick to come around fast. Little trick Jekyll taught me. When zooming with 400+mph of speed only pull to around 15º nose up and hold until your speed drops to 350. Once there, increase angle to 30º nose up and wait until you're below 275mph. Never pull harder than 2Gs or you'll waste speed. Anything below 250mph you can yank as hard as you want provided you're in the vertical.

Using a typical ratchet turn you'll dump your speed under 200 on occasion. But while diving back down you can gain an extra 100-130mph of speed. Film of this is here. You can easily tell when I pull a ratchet turn as the aircraft will perform a vertical snap roll to the angle I want.



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Flakbait
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"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000

Offline 54Ed

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Low Angle of Attack Turns
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2000, 08:47:00 PM »
LOL,sorry.  Humpty-bump is an akro term.  You pull vertical, bleed speed til you are at the minimum to go over the top, then pull or push 180 to point down.  Like a hammerhead, only with the elevator instead of the rudder.

Offline Lephturn

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Low Angle of Attack Turns
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2000, 09:04:00 AM »
Rgr that.  

Cool I learned a new term.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

Offline 54Ed

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Low Angle of Attack Turns
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2000, 12:51:00 PM »
Glad to help.

Disclaimer: I've never flown one IRL.  That maneuver only appears at the higher levels of competition, above Sportsmanl  I've no idea how hard it would be to fly one in a real WWII aircraft.  But it adequately describes what I like to do in a flight sim, so it works for me.  

I think anyone who goes vertical recognizes the basic concept.  It's all a question of the right airspeed.  Too fast, it's a loop;  too slow, it's a tailslide;  just right, it's a humpty-bump.  

Offline MiG Eater

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Low Angle of Attack Turns
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2000, 02:08:00 PM »
To all who posted here, I think this is the best discussion I've seen since I first started in the boards a year ago.  I'll probably read the information many times over and will certainly put it to good use.

Great job and kudos to all.  

MiG