Help engaging TnB aircraft

[mauser]

Hi all.. I need a little help from both the "TnB" and the "BnZ" communities... I have these two films that I took on separate occasions, one is popy in his niki and one is dzd in a spitfire. I'm interested in the opinions of the TnB crowd because they know their aircraft best and should know how much E they still have available after some of these maneuvers. Versus the niki I'm in a Dhog, and vs the spit I'm in an 190A5.  You can see how tight they can turn … there was no way I was going to turn with them.  And I was extremely afraid of going vertical (loop) at merges since I have a gut feeling that they still have enough energy after those turns to pull the nose up and nail me at 600-700 yards.  So all I did was to extend.. in the case vs the niki, I wasn't confident enough to reverse since he wasn't that far behind me, and probably would have turned inside of me anyway.  In the case of the spitfire, having a buddy around helped so that each of us could reverse on him, but while one reversed, the spit would turn straight for the other and force another merge.  Notice how well the lead turns are executed… if either me or my squaddie didn't extend first before attempting to reverse, we'd have been toast.  Couple times after extension I noticed he was within his guns range (previous to this sortie, he got me at 600+ yards on my front end.. wasn't about to let him do it again), so I had to jink a little.  Good thing the 190 accelerates better.  

So would you guys have gone vertical and looped when they break turn?  Again, I was totally afraid of them having enough E to pull the nose up into me, and I think I guessed right most of the time.  About the 1 vs. 1 with the niki.. would you also have gone vertical into a loop on that first tight break turn/circle in the film?

here are the films, zipped.. it's kinda big, so please tell me if I should split them.. thanx  
 http://www.pixi.com/~brlau/tnb.zip

mauser

[RAM]

one of my last fights here was in a Fw190A8 vs a N1K2. I started in his six, with a slight speed advantage.

The N1K2 was a quite smart pilot so this is a good account on what to do in a truck like the A8 against the flimsy Nik  

When I got under 800 yards, he started a break turn towards the left, with a slight dive. Ovbioulsy you cant follow that, so I did a lazy low G immelman, and dived on him. The scene was set, he again did the same move, so I did. I was flying conservatively to force him to be nervous and to do an error.

The third or fourth time we did this, he tried to follow me in the vertical, using the very good nik zooming. But he was very lower on E than me so he stalled. I did a hammer and pinged him good in the dive. He got a fuel tank leak and possibly a flap gone (hit him near the wing root).

Then the fight was set for the same tangle as before, but this guy was very good, and wont try to zoom with me again. I was getting ready to go more agressive when I spotted another dot coming, a friend niki coming for his mate's aid, so I disengaged at once. No way you can stay live alone in a 190A8 against to Niks if one of them is as smart as the one I was fighting.

AS rule of thumb, and if you have the time and the E advantage, fly conservatively and try to suck him into a stupid move. Then he should be history. If he refuses, then its time to burn the E advantage for angles. In the setting I had, I would have done a lazy high yoyo instead of the immelmann. I lose more E in a yoyo than in the immelmann, but I press him more too, so he burns more E.

You must try to make him turn, yank, and burn all his Energy while keeping your initiative. When you see he is near the stalling point, its the time to burn your E advantage for some angles and kill the bad boy. If you miss the shot, bad luck, its time to disengage and run to home.


Hope this has helped somehow  

[mauser]

Thanks for the tips Ram... I defeated a tiffie this tour in my A5 when he break turned and I did a low G pull-up into the vertical.  He followed and began shooting, much to my distress, so I began rolling to get out of plane.  It worked, he stalled and I hammered back down after it.  I think he crashed into the sea because although I fired I don't remember seeing hits.  Anyway, I guess the low-G part of the vertical pull up is the key here.  But I was really affraid of doing any pull up in these two situations after seeing the angles these guys could pull. But I guess I shoulda tried to find out for sure.  

I'm hoping to get replies from others also, who have the time and patience to look at the films and critique.

mauser

[Spatula]

I havent watched the films, and i dont fly 190s, but the situation sounds very familiar indeed.

As a pony pilot, you cant afford to get into an angles fight against a nik or a spitfire. Your best bet, like RAM said, is to fly conservatively, using lag-pursuit, immels, extensions etc while doing your best to try get him to do something dumb like turn hard for ya six, or follow a hi-speed zoom.

In a nose-to-nose co-E merge, trying to out-turn em on the merge is near suicide, i would do exactly what you said: i would spoil any chance of an HO and extend off for some separation, looking to see what the con has done, if they hard flat-turn for your 6 and you got some 350 MPH + up your sleeve you can easily zoom for a rope-a-dope or reverse with a cuban-half-8 and re-merge, but this time you will have more E than them. If the extend or immel, you know you got a reasonable pilot, but the same tactic applies, only reverse when your sure you can safley and get some good speed back before you re-merge.

You have to get them to turn else, you may as well just go home. Line them up on the merge at your 10 or 2 OC and turn into them at 1.3 or so, above their nose, so if they try take the HO, they will have to use alot of rudder and/or turn and put their nose high while doing it, hopefully burning off some E, for very little expended on your behalf. Some people will even try turning real hard to get your 6 as you go past em. The key is to stay fast and provide them with hi-angle off 'opportunities' to shoot at ya hopefully fooling them into turning and burning E to take em. Dont expect it to work instantly, you may have to slowly wear them down, before going for the kill. Sometimes this (for me) means running for a while, which lets me get seperation and build up an E advantage, as they cant match the P51s speed which can be used to slowly gain alt, without them closing on you.

when all else fails, as general rule, if it can out-turn you it probably cant match your raw speed, so flee  

[Lephturn]

OK, I watched both films.

1.  The merge is where you are losing the fight.  You are letting the other guy get horizontal or vertical separation at the merge and use it lead turn you.  You need to merge as close to the turnfighter as possible, preferably under his nose, and reverse with an oblique immelman if possible.  Also, remember that because of net lag, don't wait until he visually passes you to start your reversal.  Anwhere under D300 or so and you can start your reversal.  If you wait, he gets a positional advantage.

2.  You need to learn to use the vertical.  In both of those planes you need to be using as much vertical maneuvers as you can.  I saw you pull 3,4, and 5 G flat turns, sometimes for 360 degrees.  You can't do that in an E fighter, which you are by comparison to both of the planes you faced.  You need to use vertical reversals whenever possible, that means immelmans, or at least high yoyo's whenever you have the speed and are out of guns range.  If you watch the N1k tape, you'll notice that at one point when you are on his 6, he flat turns and you do a nice high yoyo and then drop down onto him.  That was sweet, you need to do that more.  Use the verticle Luke!  Remember, birds like those roll well, and the way you "out turn" the TnB planes is to use the verticle and roll instead of trying to turn with them.  The first merge with the N1k you HAD him.. you had more E and he tried to zoom with you.  You could have popped a bit of flap and gone straight up, then flopped over as high as possible and fall on him.

3.  Don't fight without an E advantage!  In an E fighter, you MUST start with an E advantage if you expect to win.  Versus a very good all around plane like the Spit IX, if you don't have an E advantage to start with, you are gonna die.  Do yourself a favour and extend and grab, then come back and kill him.

4.  Extend faster.  In both cases, you lead the other guy on a merry chase, but not as fast as you could have.  To be effective, extend low and maintain a speed you know to be above the other guy's maximum.  This way, you can maximize your extension, and hopefully reverse earlier to the fight.  Done right, you can generate a bit of an E advantage by using a very high climb speed and then reversing vertically.

To start with, go here:  http://members.home.com/mefletcher/merge.html

Then practice your merges.  Some 1v1's in the training arena with a buddy or a trainer will get you sorted.  

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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome!

"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)

[stefano]

Thanks a lot to Ram, Spatula and Lepthurn for those clear and interesting explanations. Was about basics, but you never know enough about that...  

LUPO

[mauser]

Thanks much guys, I really, really appreciated your help    I'll have to overcome my fear of using the vertical in these kinds of fights.  It is probably due to mis-judging the e-state of the opponent.  Hopefully I have slightly better judgment now.  I see fletchman's merge tactics document.. I neglected to read that when I used to lurk in AGW and before I ever got online.  Looks like a good opportunity now that I can understand things better.  Thanks again all of you  

mauser

[MANDOBLE]

Just a point about the high risk of going vertical when the guy you are chasing start a break turn you cant follow.

The situation is like this, being plane A a poor tuner and plane B a good turner:
1 - Plane A chases plane B, aproaching with a BIT of speed advantage at six o'clock.
2 - Plane B notices plane A just before getting into plane A guns range and starts a break turn.
3 - Plane A pull up and go vertical just as plane B start the break turn, suspecting plane B will complete 180 or 360 degree turn and loosing a good amount of E.
4 - Plane B notices plane A going vertical, stop the turn after less than 45 degree and before loosing any E goes vertical chasing plane A.
5 - Plane A is destroyed by plane B at 700 yards in the vertical climb.

Normally, the first quarter of a break turn doesnt burn any E, and the turning plane will go vertical with you.

[mauser]

Thanks for the tip mandoble; that's what I'm usually affraid of, and what I meant when I said I'm wary of going vertical nowadays.  I think I'm judging E a little better now, if I notice the con trying to follow me up I will push the nose down to decrease the angle of climb; and maybe turn so that the con will need to pull more. So very little E is lost when a con breaks for the first quarter turn or so.. thx again.

mauser

[Soda]

Good point Mandoble, but to ensure that doesn't happen I have often taken to a slow vertical pull up.  Make sure you have overtake speed and don't just pull up so you end up overtop of him, pull up gently, bleeding less speed and also putting some lateral seperation on top of your vertical seperation.

The easy shot is when he can come up right behind you and basically get a 0deg off-angle 6 shot, if you hesitate that extra second, or pull up more gently, you'll tend to get him into a climb where he isn't right behind you so has to move in more directions to try and follow you up.  You can always loop over the top of your climb to gain the horizontal seperation back for your next zoom.

You also tend to make a lower G pullup doing this and end up retaining more E to trade for alt, especially on high wing loaded planes.  If done right, the TnB'r will either try to follow you up and stall trying to cover both the vertical and horizontal distance, or give up and just start circling below you.

That help?  make sense?

-Soda

[Lephturn]

Good advice Soda.

A good way to conserve your E in a pull up is to keep an eye on the G meter.  Keep it under 3 G's and you will do a nice gentle pull-up and retain you E very nicely, just as Soda suggests.  I usually combine this with a slight roll away from his break, basically leading me into an oblique immelman angled away from his break slightly.  This way if he pulls up, he not only has to zoom up behind me, but also haul his nose around more horizontally.  In addition, this move sets me up for a barrel roll attack of sorts if he continues the turn.  Basically instead of  completing the immel, at about a 45 degree climb or more, but before vertical, I roll away from his break, and pull down, rolling right in the dive to align my exit point with where the bogey will be in his turn, and get a deflection shot.  This is a tricky move to do properly, and it takes just the right amount of vertical and horizontal separation along with good timing.  When you get it right though, it rocks.    This is a move best used in aircraft that roll very well, but don't turn well in relation to the enemy.  The P47 and FW are great machines for this move.

There is an even more simple solution to this scenario however.  If your plane is even close to the other in terms of turning ability and you only have a slight E advantage, a simple high yoyo is often a better move.  Use the vertical to avoid an overshoot and tighten your turn, and I usually drop into lag pursuit at the end of it and then assess the situation.  If he continues the break, I will either be able to use further high yoyo's and go into lead for a shot, or I will have to wait for him to break hard and then roll to his blind side and disengage if I've lost the E advantage.  However, the high yoyo to follow a break is the most aggresive move at this point.  I use this alot, simply because Joe N1k driver normally doesn't expect me to be that aggresive in my P47.  In addition, most planes accelerate better than my Jug, so if I wait too long, I'll lose my E advantage.  I'm better off to get really aggresive and go for a shot while I still have the E to burn.  The trick is realizing when you don't have the advantage anymore, and disengaging before you get killed.

I will always go for the more aggresive move if there are no other bad guys around to threaten me.  The only reason you have an E advantage is so that you can burn it at some point for a shot, and an aggresive move early will often get you a kill.

"Here is a fundamental SpecWarrior truth: the three elements most crucial to the success of your operation are, one: surprise, two: speed, and three: violence of action." - Richard Marchinko "Rogue Warrior"

I find that applies pretty well to air combat.  Kill by surprise is the best.  Failing that, kill quickly before the enemy can react or call for help.  The third part, violence of action, I equate to aggressiveness in air combat.  If you have three moves you can make, pick the most aggressive one!  Don't be suicidal about it, but don't wait for the perfect setup to make the shot.  Engage the enemy and attack as soon as possible.  Many times violence of action by going very aggresive will win you fights.  If you are fighting based on an E advantage that you can't keep forever, be aggressive and kill him or disengage, because time is on his side.

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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[Soda]

Lephturn, only 6 posts and a junior member  

I like that slight roll in this maneuver too, it helps you keep view on him to watch what he is doing in response to your zoom.  It also seems to give you a much better feel for when he stalls, his aspect changes rather quickly since you are inducing some aspect change on him to start with.

As for the Low G, I agree, under 3, which can be really hard since your trim tabs alone at high speed can make you pull 3 G.  

Another point to consider, don't go in to the BnZ with too much speed.  If you come in like a bullet you will probably yank around on the stick like a wildman or compress and blow the whole fight.  I tend to bleed some speed before the fight, corresponding with the alt advantage I have.  Planes like the P38 and 109 can quickly get into compression if you come cruising in fast and high.. 5K of dive can be enough to get you overspeed and make the whole battle turn south quickly.  It depends on the plane though, so things like Leph's P47 tend to do better with a little extra speed, 109's don't.

Lastly, don't be afraid to flop over the top of your vertical maneuver even if the enemy hasn't yet, sometimes you'll flop over JUST before he does, but he's hanging on his prop and is in perfect situation for you to kill.  Typically, if you know you went in with more E, and zoomed, then you can assume that with a nice gentle maneuver you still have more E and this should have been able to zoom better.  You might have just started your zoom earlier and thus finish a smidge earlier.  Nothing is better than kicking the tail over thinking "damn he's still coming at D1.2" only to see him stall just as you start accelerating back down the slope... easy kill, tends to give you a full plane planform shot.. that's a nice kill.

-Soda