karnak

[killnu]

one of the most overmodeled fighters

this is from russian thread.

so, how is P38 "overmodeled"?

facts only, charts...etc.

maybe you should let somebody important know this.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by killnu
this is from russian thread.

so, how is P38 "overmodeled"?

facts only, charts...etc.

maybe you should let somebody important know this.

It's overmodeled in the hands of folks like yourself KillnU.  It's undermodeled when being flown by folks like me

Dan/Slack

[Karnak]

I was being nasty.  He peeved me by picking on two nearly non-existant aircraft in AH.


As to the P-38, I don't know if it is overmodeled.  It strikes me as a little bit suspicious that a fighter with ~50lbs.sq.ft of wingloading can deploy some flaps and match the manuverability of a fighter with ~35lbs.sq.ft of wingloading and a better power-to-weight ratio.

Who knows, it might be possible, but I have doubts.  It seems to me that it is rather optimistic.

[storch]

Originally posted by Karnak
I was being nasty.  He peeved me by picking on two nearly non-existant aircraft in AH.


As to the P-38, I don't know if it is overmodeled.  It strikes me as a little bit suspicious that a fighter with ~50lbs.sq.ft of wingloading can deploy some flaps and match the manuverability of a fighter with ~35lbs.sq.ft of wingloading and a better power-to-weight ratio.

Who knows, it might be possible, but I have doubts.  It seems to me that it is rather optimistic.

Is it allied? well you know my opinion.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Karnak
I was being nasty.  He peeved me by picking on two nearly non-existant aircraft in AH.


As to the P-38, I don't know if it is overmodeled.  It strikes me as a little bit suspicious that a fighter with ~50lbs.sq.ft of wingloading can deploy some flaps and match the manuverability of a fighter with ~35lbs.sq.ft of wingloading and a better power-to-weight ratio.

Who knows, it might be possible, but I have doubts.  It seems to me that it is rather optimistic.

Nearly non existent? REALLY????


Well, then explain the 5 Tempests I met Saturday night, one of which augered, two of which went HO on me, and all of which took at least a couple of minutes, and help from a Spitfire or two to finally kill me. And those were not the only Tempests I saw Saturday night. I saw at least two or three on five sorties in a row against the Bish, who at the time also had superior numbers.

Further, explain the number of KI84's I see on a regular basis. I haven't been on more than 5 sorties this month where I haven't seen at least one or two KI84's.

You and your buddies just seem to be obsessed with getting nasty with people. You'll pardon me if I just get sick of putting up with you.

Regarding wingloading, and power to weight, come back to me when you learn about aspect ratio and wing profiles, especially combined with flaps. Also, go investigate prop efficiency and how multiple props are an advantage.

[Karnak]

You had five people auger Tempests around you and you're whining about it?  What was that at current prices?  300 perk points base price? Whine all you want, you're not going to convince us that the MA is teeming with Tempests.

The Ki-84?  That one is more common that the Tempest, true.  It is so common in fact that it actually gets 1/3rd the number of kills that the P-38L does (reference Tour 60).  That is just so common that I can hardly handle the injustice of it.  Imagine, a fighter regarded as one of the war's best getting a whole third of the number of kills as that perfection of a fighter, the P-38, does?  It boggles one's mind.

You seem utterly convinced that the P-38 was the absolute best fighter of WWII and the fact that it doesn't absolutely dominate everything seems to gall you endlessly.


EDIT:

The P-38 as described by Captain Virgil Hilts (derived from reading his posts on the subject):

450+mph
4,500fpm+ climb
no compression issue (myth made up by a corrupt congressional comitee)
Rolls faster than an Fw190
Turns better than a Spitfire Mk V
Longer ranged than a P-51D
More durable than an Il-2
Easier to fly than an A6M2
100% viceless and impossible to stall (twin engines will do that you know)

The perfect prop fighter.

[Furious]

sarcasm is fun.  

[Stang]

Originally posted by Karnak


The perfect prop fighter.

Well ya got that right.

[Guppy35]

Well, this poor P38G pilot just spent the last few minutes ducking the attention of 3, yes that's 3 Me262s.  Thankfully they couldn't shoot and didn't work well together as I finally got out safe on the deck.  But it's a less then pleasant spot to be in when you know the bad guy alone controls things and with three of them I should have been short work

Dan/Slack

[streetstang]

EDIT:
The P-38 as described by Captain Virgil Hilts (derived from reading his posts on the subject):

450+mph
4,500fpm+ climb
no compression issue (myth made up by a corrupt congressional comitee)
Rolls faster than an Fw190
Turns better than a Spitfire Mk V
Longer ranged than a P-51D
More durable than an Il-2
Easier to fly than an A6M2
100% viceless and impossible to stall (twin engines will do that you know)

The perfect prop fighter.

This is called a troll.

And if he really thinks' this then he better start his homework early tonight.

After all. I beleive it was he, who told me that the P38 was produced with only 1 gun package. When I could provide countless documents that prove otherwise. But why bother? Ya know... Its his lose of information and a further gain in ignorance.

Then I told him I, ate slept and breathed P38's for a long time. "not like me" he replies. Yeah I can tell.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Karnak
You had five people auger Tempests around you and you're whining about it?  What was that at current prices?  300 perk points base price? Whine all you want, you're not going to convince us that the MA is teeming with Tempests.

The Ki-84?  That one is more common that the Tempest, true.  It is so common in fact that it actually gets 1/3rd the number of kills that the P-38L does (reference Tour 60).  That is just so common that I can hardly handle the injustice of it.  Imagine, a fighter regarded as one of the war's best getting a whole third of the number of kills as that perfection of a fighter, the P-38, does?  It boggles one's mind.

You seem utterly convinced that the P-38 was the absolute best fighter of WWII and the fact that it doesn't absolutely dominate everything seems to gall you endlessly.


EDIT:

The P-38 as described by Captain Virgil Hilts (derived from reading his posts on the subject):

450+mph
4,500fpm+ climb
no compression issue (myth made up by a corrupt congressional comitee)
Rolls faster than an Fw190
Turns better than a Spitfire Mk V
Longer ranged than a P-51D
More durable than an Il-2
Easier to fly than an A6M2
100% viceless and impossible to stall (twin engines will do that you know)

The perfect prop fighter.

You sound bitter Karak   Relax bud, it's all in fun.

Thought you might like this.  Part of the cover of the 8th FG History.(couldn't fit the whole thing on the scanner)  Shows part of an engagement between 2 Ki84s and 2 P38Ls.  The Ls claimed em both

Dan/Slack

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Karnak

EDIT:

The P-38 as described by Captain Virgil Hilts (derived from reading his posts on the subject):

450+mph
4,500fpm+ climb
no compression issue (myth made up by a corrupt congressional comitee)
Rolls faster than an Fw190
Turns better than a Spitfire Mk V
Longer ranged than a P-51D
More durable than an Il-2
Easier to fly than an A6M2
100% viceless and impossible to stall (twin engines will do that you know)

The perfect prop fighter.

Karnak, if you'd like to make this really nasty, I can certainly accomodate you. If you'd like to continue to make up lies for quotes from me and take them out of context, I can deal with that as well.

Here is the truth about what I've posted, taken directly from data I keep handy:

The following are the CORRECT stats for the Allison V-1710F-30. Write 'em down somewhere....

Ratings [minutes] Power RPM Manifold [in.Hg] Altitude [ft]
Normal (no limit) 1,100 2,600 44 30,000
Take Off (5) 1,475 3,000 54 SL
Military (15) 1,475 3,000 54 30,000
WEP (5) 1,725 3,000 60 28,700


The most commonly printed max speed numbers for the P-38L state 414 mph. How interesting. Consider that the L was fitted with the -30 Allisons, as opposed to the -17 on the J. There is a big difference, and I'll go into that a little later. The typical numbers presented for the J are 421 mph IN WEP. The typical numbers presented for the L are 414 mph IN METO. This is one of the pitfalls of using commercially available data. It usually isn't researched very well. The difference between METO and WEP is 600 hp. The -30 produced a minimum of 1,725 hp in WEP. As opposed to 1,425 hp in METO. The -17 installed in the P-38J had the same METO rating as the -30 at 1,425 hp. However, the -17 only made 1,600 hp in WEP. The additional power could push the L to speeds over 440 mph. Warren Bodie concludes the maximum speed in WEP as 443 mph at altitudes between 20,000 and 23,500 ft. Bodie obtained his data directly from Lockheed, where he was employed as an engineer on the U-2 and F-117 programs.


Max climb rate at sea level: 4,225 fpm (50% fuel, normal ammo) Max climb rate at 23,400 ft: 3,940 fpm Time to 23,400 ft: 5.94 minutes Time to 30,000 ft: 8.86 minutes Service Ceiling: 44,000 ft.



The basic performance figures for the P-38L are as follows (from Lockheed factory test logbooks): Max speed at sea level: 352 mph Max speed at 5,500 ft : 369 mph Max speed at 23,500 ft. 440 mph (WEP) 5 minutes max. Max speed at critical alt: 444 mph @ 25,800 (WEP) 5 minutes max.


Now, nowhere did I EVER say the P-38 did not suffer from the effects of compression. I said that no less than a dozen well know and often quoted P-38 pilots, some of whom I still correspond with on a semi regular basis said this: "After the introduction of the dive flaps, it was no problem to roll over and follow an enemy plane down from 25,000 feet,  before the dive flaps you'd compress. Below 20,000 feet you could follow the enemy down without undue drama, even without the dive flaps."

I said that at high speed the P-38J-25-Lo and later rolls faster than a P-51, and approaches the roll rate of the FW 190 and the P-47. Note I said approaches, not exceeds.

Never did I say the P-38  could out turn a Spitfire. I did say that some P-38 pilots were able to turn with some Spitfire pilots, at some speeds and in some cases.

The P-38J with leading edge wing tanks and drop tanks flown at the proper throttle settings does have more range than a P-51D.

I've NEVER compared the P-38 to an IL2 in any way. I did say that the P-38 was only exceeded in durability by the P-47.

I never said it was easier to fly than a Zero.

I never said it would not stall, nor that it would not ever spin. I said it had a very gentle stall, and was not prone to spins. I never said the P-38 was without vices.

You sir, are a fool and a liar, and an ankle humping loser as well.

As I said, if you want to get nasty, and you want to misquote me, or take my statements out of context, or just plain lie like the scum you are, I can deal with that as well. Bring it on little man, keep it up and you'll be glad the HTC staff will put a stop to this.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by streetstang
This is called a troll.

And if he really thinks' this then he better start his homework early tonight.

After all. I beleive it was he, who told me that the P38 was produced with only 1 gun package. When I could provide countless documents that prove otherwise. But why bother? Ya know... Its his lose of information and a further gain in ignorance.

Then I told him I, ate slept and breathed P38's for a long time. "not like me" he replies. Yeah I can tell.

I can certainly assure you that I've done my homework. I've been studying the P-38 for over 20 years. I've driven hundreds of miles just to study the planes, see the documents, and speak with the pilots. I still correspond with almost a dozen real P-38 pilots on a semi regular basis.

Oh, and with regards to the gun packages, show me your documentation that the P-38 was PRODUCED, by the FACTORY, in NUMBERS, as a REGULAR MODEL, and NOT a PROTOTYPE, with a gun package any different than either 4 50 caliber Browning machine guns and one 37MM cannon, or 4 50 caliber Browning machine guns and one 20MM cannon.

I'd certainly like to see production dates, numbers, and models. Nothing I've ever read anywhere shows any factual data with production dates, models, and production numbers, with anything but those two packages. There were several prototypes, and several field modifications, but not regular production that I have seen documentation for.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Guppy35
 The Ls claimed em both

 

I bet the Ki's claimed both of the Ls too

-Sik

[Karnak]

Savage,

Until the very post that I claimed I was being nasty in I have always refrained from such.  You're ludicrous claim about the Tempest (which I don't really care about, but it was to big a lie to let you get away with) and the Ki-84 provoked that response.  I should have held my my self control better.

You get very nasty, very fast with anybody who doubts anything about your claims regarding the P-38.  I've read most of your posts on the subject and, in general, you come off as a rabid P-38 fan who cherry picks the data you base your claims on in order to make your pet fighter out to be the best you can.  Barbi does this same thing in regards to the Bf109, and does you one better by also cherry picking the worst data for everything else.


My snide "derived" P-38 comment was meant to be over the top.  The only thing I have actually seen you claim that is close to any of that is a 450mph top speed for the P-38L (or J).  Nonetheless, that is the kind of P-38 that your posts project, a fighter with no significant flaws and an easy answer to everything.

Frankly, I'm just a bit tired of hearing the persecution complex from players who have one of the best air-to-air fighters in the game, and the single best aircraft in the game when looked at from a balanced perspective.  One that has nearly none of the vices that the P-38 had in reality.  The P-38 is a great fighter in AH and the persistant whines about it are really old.


Dan,

What were the relative skill levels of those P-38L and Ki-84 pilots?  I'll bet the Americans were a whole heck of a lot better trained and more experienced.