Author Topic: Question on airwar in Vietnam  (Read 1774 times)

Offline Jackal1

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2005, 08:16:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
always nice when you have to add the disclaimer - * not for propaganda purposes.

lol.


Heehee. And allready rewriting to suit the need.
:D
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Offline FUNKED1

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2005, 08:47:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Suave
How many of those losses aren't helicopters ?

Those are all fixed wing, sorry for not saying that before.

Offline Boroda

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2005, 11:49:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Total losses are aircraft "written off" to all causes.  Accidents, battle damage, sabotage, etc.
The SAM losses are only ones where they had confirmation that it was a SAM.  Obviously there could be more.  Same for MiG losses.


Thanks for making it clear.

Here are some numbers from unknown sources for SAM aces:

Chan Say ("unit" commander; 196?)
VietCong Fam Chyong Uiy (division commander; 43?)
VietCong Nguyen Suan Day (division commander; 40?)

Not speaking about Soviet advisors and their scores... It's the only hope - if Russia will open the archives as we did for Korean war material, there will be reliable (classified) material about Soviet combat victories there.

It's funny, but when I came home last night and turned on the TV - First channel showed a documentary about Vietnam. Second episode tonight, but I am afraid I'll be drinking somewhere...

Offline Boroda

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2005, 11:55:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Heehee. And allready rewriting to suit the need.
:D


What made you think so? Mike supplied numbers that are quite reasonable, and there is no way (yet) to doubt them. Ratio of "combat" and "non-combat" losses is probably the same as in Korean war.

As a sane person (at least I think so ;)) I have deepest respect to American servicemen who fought in Vietnam, Korea, and other places. They had their orders, and they were an enemy worthy of respect. This is not bloody "political correctness", this is what I really think. !

Offline OneWordAnswer

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2005, 12:01:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
- if Russia will open the archives as we did for Korean war material, there will be reliable (classified) material about Soviet combat victories there.

I'll (must) be drinking .......


:rolleyes:

Offline Boroda

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2005, 12:09:35 PM »
Need another nickname for "no words answer" urgently.

At least I'll be sober tomorrow.

Offline Nefarious

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2005, 12:52:52 PM »
US Navy F-4 Kills 65-70. Edit Forgot to Add, that the MiG-17 down South near Hainan, was a Chinese MiG, It was also the First Navy Kill possibly the First Kill by US Forces of the War.



US Navy F-4 Kills during Linebacker I and II

« Last Edit: February 18, 2005, 01:30:43 PM by Nefarious »
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline FUNKED1

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2005, 01:59:48 PM »
"Clashes" by Marshall Michel has a lot of figures on SAM and MiG losses too, I'll post those ASAP.
I would expect SAM and MiG kills to be overestimated by the DRVN and underestimated by the USAF/USN/USMC, for simple technical reasons.  Fighter pilots are always going to report some damaged planes as kills because they weren't able to follow the target visually to impact, and SAM operators are often too far from their target to confirm a kill.  On the other side, the US would only record a MiG or SAM loss if they had an eyewitness or there was evidence from radio traffic or radar tracks.  Otherwise it would just go in the book as a combat loss of unknown cause.

Offline Boroda

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2005, 02:03:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
"Clashes" by Marshall Michel has a lot of figures on SAM and MiG losses too, I'll post those ASAP.
I would expect SAM and MiG kills to be overestimated by the DRVN and underestimated by the USAF/USN/USMC, for simple technical reasons.  Fighter pilots are always going to report some damaged planes as kills because they weren't able to follow the target visually to impact, and SAM operators are often too far from their target to confirm a kill.  On the other side, the US would only record a MiG or SAM loss if they had an eyewitness or there was evidence from radio traffic or radar tracks.  Otherwise it would just go in the book as a combat loss of unknown cause.


It's exactly as I see it. Patiently waiting for your next post. Thanks again!

Offline Jackal1

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2005, 02:11:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
What made you think so?  


Mmmmmmm...maybe because the first rattle out of the box you disputed them? Think that could be it?
You then go on to say if only Russia would open the records you would have "reliable" information. Maybe that had something to do with.
Sort of comical really. There`s a crackhead that runs around a town not to far from here that I would designate "reliable" before anything that ever has or ever will come from Russian records.
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Offline Siaf__csf

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2005, 03:03:33 PM »
Heh I'm 100% sure that those classified records that were made in order to please the party leaders and ensure the survival of the reportee will show without questions that the whole US airforce was shot down 2 to 3 times during the campaign. Plus accidents of course.

:D

Boroda must be quite naive to think anything the communist regime reported was actually accurate. The system was and still is without doubt the most corrupt chain of lies known to man.

Offline Dago

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2005, 04:16:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
I'll be drinking somewhere...


And your opinions will reflect that fact, as they normally do.


dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Dago

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2005, 04:20:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

You then go on to say if only Russia would open the records you would have "reliable" information.
Sort of comical really. /B]


That was a giggle wasn't it?

If Pravda said Russia built the Sun and the Moon, boroda would come on this board and swear to it as fact.  :D

dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Dago

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2005, 04:21:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Boroda must be quite naive to think anything the communist regime reported was actually accurate.  


Ding ding ding!!!!!   Truer words were never spoken.
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Siaf__csf

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Question on airwar in Vietnam
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2005, 02:50:45 AM »
Dago did you know that they had factories producing tractors.

One factory produced supplies to the machines. The other compiled them. The third painted them and fourth 'sold' them.

The system was government funded just like anything back then.

So, when there was a shortage of metal the first factory couldn't manufacture the parts. The second couldn't put them together and fouth couldn't sell them to citizens.

What did they do? They faked reports that showed parts flowing to the facility, faked reports that showed tractors shipped to the sales and everyone was happy. Government paid monthly for a nonexistent production. :D  The factory workers went about doing basically nothing, if you count out them stealing everything that wasn't bolted to the ground.

I recall Pres. Bush saying drunk 'Only in America' in one video. Well this was 'Only in Soviet Union'

Then later when SU broke up, the factories were split among the workers as it was 'peoples property.'

Every worker had a few shares. They hadn't got paid for several months for thier work. Like millions of russians, they earned thier income from different kinds of trading, usually stolen material. The president of the factory who had loads of 'money' gained from legal and mostly illegal activities, bought out all the shares of the workers for a few rubles per share.

This way the workers got enough money for a bread loaf and the president owned a factory. Some then started actually manufacturing something and got filthy rich. One such example was the guy who bought out a medicine factory and is now one of the richest men in Russia. I think he even ran for president at one time.

Some, that now owned factories with really heavy outdated equipment that was used to build parts for panzers etc. simply SCRAPPED the whole factories and sold them for SCRAP IRON! :aok

This way the russians destroyed a huge chunk of their production facilities and the factory bosses became millionaires from the scrap metal value of the factory equipment. ROFL!

They now drive humwees and S-class mercedeses and live behind armoured walls and doors that look like a bank safe. The workers were laid off (DUH!) and became poorer than ever if that's possible.

The economy was flushed down to the toilet at the same time when millions of people were without work, the government no longer supported them and they had to commit differnet crimes to survive - or start simple trade economy in order to bring food to the table.

It's really difficult to grasp the huge **** up they created there.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2005, 03:05:25 AM by Siaf__csf »