Zazen

[mars01]

Exactly Guppy,

So many in this game don't even realize that simple idea.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Deaths aren't real, planes are free the second after you die.  Why wouldn't you dive into the mob?  You don't go in expecting to die, but hoping to test your limits.

I've been down on the deck in a 38G lately and more often then not I'll end up getting chopped in the crowd, but you know what?  I'm lasting longer and learning more about the limits of that bird, so what do I have to lose.....unless I'm worried about rank,points, perks and K/D.....which I am not.

Dan/Slack

This is an Epiphany --> A sudden manifestation of the essence or meaning of something.

[nopoop]

..and Guppy has to shield the bright and all encompassing light from his eyes.

An intense white that draws on his soul..

[hubsonfire]

Okay, we're all incompetent and wrong. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I say there are few that either intend on RTB or at least plan on it.
intentionally die by crashing intentionally into the ground or target.

My point was purely methodological.  Even if you can find numbers substantiating your view that more people die than return to base (a perfectly reasonable statement), you cannot say that they died because they were "suicidal."  You could only say that more people die than return to base each mission.

Now, some of those people might die because they don't care about living -- base porkers, furballers, whatever -- and some of them die not because they don't care, but because they can't help but to die.  They aren't good enough to live even if they wished it every flight.  Hence my comment about "competence."  As you cannot distinguish between deaths caused by lack of caring and deaths caused by lack of skill, you cannot definitively state that most players fly suicidally.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[MOSQ]

Dred,

Your quote about suicide base porkers was mine. I'm glad my quote struck a nerve with you!

I think there is a HUGE difference between suicide base porkers and furballers.

SBPs pay no attention to the plane on their 6. None! They dive in, barely extend, turn around dive in until dead. Their sole mission is to kill ORD and/or Barracks. They ignore ack and other players until dead. They don't fight humans, they "fight" buildings. Their goal is to destroy buildings until the pesky enemy plane on their 6 kills them. When they take off on such missions, they know with certainty they will not return.  

Furballers pay very close attention to enemy planes. They actually fight humans! If they are successful all the enemy humans will be back in the tower and they will still be flying. Their goal is to still be alive when their enemies are dead. If that is accomplished most will land their kills.

I personally like to fly to live. Whether I'm on a base pork run or up to find a furball. When I take off, I intend to RTB. Flying until dead is just too gamey for me. If I'm on a base pork mission, I drop my ord, extend, then fight whoever is around. If the SA says I'm outnumbered 5 to 1, I try to RTB. But I don't just keep fighting buildings until dead.

If Mars, Guppy, Nopoop, want to furball until they run out of gas, that's great for them. I just don't get a charge out of it. But at least they are fighting people! They create good gameplay!

The SBPs do not create good game play. They are just lamers.

[mars01]

Very True Mosq,

But it is also incorrect to think most people don't want to RTB.  I don't think many people like getting killed.  I do think alot of people like pushing the odds.

Personally I don't fly till I am out of gas, some times I realise I have stayed in the fight to long and no longer have the fuel to RTB so I will fight till I run out of gas.  I will also engage a 5 Vs 1 because I believe you gotta play to win.  My SA and ability has gotten many times better jumping into bad odds then if I played it safe, thus making me a better pilot.  Now I am winning more two and three on ones and sometimes getting out of the 5 or more on one with a few kills.

[pellik]

SBP's are a given for suicide runs. Furballers arn't suicide dweebs, they just enjoy fighting more then they enjoy living. It's not that they don't care about survival, but they don't think surviving is much fun if you don't have any kills to land.

IMO this is becomming somewhat rare in the MA. People extend out without really attacking anymore because, for some reason unbeknownst to me, they are afraid of dieing in a game that lets you take off again right away. I mean, people have more balls in counterstrike, and in that game you can wind up waiting for > 5 min. to respawn.

-pellik

[Zazen13]

Dred, I wish I could do this, short of writing a parsing script and getting access to the raw data I could not even begin to do so. It would not be hard for HiTech to compile this from the raw database but I doubt database sorting refinements are high on his priority list. But, as others have said I'm not sure how valuable the information would be even if we did have it. While I personally consider flying to survive the 'only' way to approach this game, as I personally find it the most satisfying I am fully aware that I am in the minority in this regard. From my direct observations in-game I would conservatively estimate 3/4 of those who take-off have zero intention of surviving unless they happen to run out of gas or ammunition in close proximity to a friendly base. That is not to say they lack the ability to kill and survive, they may well have it, what they lack is the motivation to do so, there is no measure for a players' motivation or  unrealized potential.

As several posters have stated you don't really die, the only sacrafice you make is the time it takes you to re-up and re-alt another plane and get to the action. Obviously, this alone is not much incentive to put forth the extra time, thought and effort to try to kill AND survive, this is why those concerned with rank tend to fly to survive, they have another motivational factor beyond a simple time-sink to encourage them to do so. Most, however,  just accept the fact that they will likely die and attempt to kill until they inevitably get killed themselves. I find this particular approach extremely boring, uninteresting and not terribly challenging. There reaches a point in everyone's virtual career when killing in and of itself becomes rather trivial. Killing and not being killed however, requires quite a bit more committment in terms of thought,  tactical finesse and discretion in engagements.

All things considered I would prefer everyone do whatever it is that keeps their interest in the game, for me that is killing without being killed. For mars01 or Slappy its getting low and slow in a Spit and seeing how many enemy they can take to the grave with them, for some others it's diving in on a field trying to vulch a few before they get wacked themselves. The fact is if everyone flew for the exact same reasons in the exact same way the game would not be half as interesting. I do not vulch so my targets consist primarily of 3 categories: 1) The high-alt wannabe porker/vulcher 2) the fellow survivalist I meet at altitude 3) the furball until they get wacked type. You take away any type of flyer and the atmosphere of the MA gets simplified (boring). It's all the various strata and types of engagements that makes AH2 tactically engrossing....

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by pellik
SBP's are a given for suicide runs. Furballers arn't suicide dweebs, they just enjoy fighting more then they enjoy living. It's not that they don't care about survival, but they don't think surviving is much fun if you don't have any kills to land.


-pellik

Good point here, I consider myself a purist, the quintessential survivalist. But, to be honest until I have 5+ kills in a hop surviving is a secondary goal to killing. If I am low on gas with ammunition remaining and have fewer than 3 kills I will go WAYYYYY out of my way to get some more kills, not suicidally but definately pushing hard on the envelope of tactical prudence. Once I get 5 kills I tighten up and surviving becomes the top priority. I would imagine those less inclined toward survivalism would be even more biased toward the, 'get a kill at all costs' angle. I think most people who are survivalists for reasons that have nothing to do with rank, like myself, became proficient at killing long ago and turned to survivalism to effectively 'raise the bar' on their effectiveness emulating the tactical approach real WW2 combat fighter pilots took. The rare times I fly with no regard for survival my flying is undisciplined and sloppy, and I quickly get bored whether I am successfull or not. The self-imposed 'fear of death' actually makes me fly a more inspired game, a kind of inspiration by necessity thing.

The flip-side of this is, as pellik eluded to, if you are still at the stage where just getting kills is tough business for you, flying to survive is likely just going to further your frustration level. Once getting 5+ kills consistantly in a variety of rides becomes relatively easy for you it's probably worth your time to add the survivalist dimension to your game, especially after just shooting people down gets insanely boring and you thirst for an added tactical challenge, one that excercises your mind as well as your stick hand. Most people with mediocre skills can enter a furball in a Spit9 (insert your favorite EZ-mode plane here) with some E and flail around for a while getting a kill or three before your E state degrades to untenable and you die. This is not particularly different or challenging. Entering a fight committed to survive while still killing three guys is quite a bit more complex, requires quite a bit more forethought and SA and a strong conception of energy management and the nearly perfect assessment of relative E states under fire.


Zazen

[mars01]

For mars01 or Slappy its getting low and slow in a Spit and seeing how many enemy they can take to the grave with them,

Again, we don't fly to die, but then again we don't fly like a namby, mamby, pansei because we need to survive either.

We fight, we fight from a disadvantage, we fight against odds most people would not fight against.  We fly for the action.  If we end a good sortie and have kills to land we land them.  To say we fly to die makes you as ignorant as your statement.

Good point here, I consider myself a purist, the quintessential survivalist. But, to be honest until I have 5+ kills in a hop surviving is a secondary goal to killing.

So you are a suicide dweeb since the only thing I've seen you land kills in for some time has only been an Osti.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01

 So you are a suicide dweeb since the only thing I've seen you land kills in for some time has only been an Osti.

Actually, I have had very little time to fly at all the past 6 months. I think I have 20 hours flown in the past 6 months combined. SO, no you are not seeing me land kills in anything...

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
Again, we don't fly to die, but then again we don't fly like a namby, mamby, pansei because we need to survive either.

 

I never said you fly to die, I said you do not fly with any regard for survival, there's a subtle but important distinction between the two. I really couldn't give a rats arse how you fly really, whatever rocks your boat. I just used you and slappy as examples because you two always have your lil' fingers in the pie on these boards trying to encourage everyone who will listen to not care about surviving either, undoubtedly so you have more fresh meat on your kill menu..

Zazen

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Okay, we're all incompetent and wrong. Thanks for clearing that up.

your very welcome:aok

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
My point was purely methodological.  Even if you can find numbers substantiating your view that more people die than return to base (a perfectly reasonable statement), you cannot say that they died because they were "suicidal."  You could only say that more people die than return to base each mission.

Now, some of those people might die because they don't care about living -- base porkers, furballers, whatever -- and some of them die not because they don't care, but because they can't help but to die.  They aren't good enough to live even if they wished it every flight.  Hence my comment about "competence."  As you cannot distinguish between deaths caused by lack of caring and deaths caused by lack of skill, you cannot definitively state that most players fly suicidally.

-- Todd/Leviathn

If you go willingly and knowingly go into a situation such as the case of a furball or a basepork. knowing full well the odds of you surviving it is very unlikely which is usually the case  then you are in fact doing something suicidal even if it is your desire to not die.
the fact your putting yourself into a position where you are not likely to live through it makes it so.
Its not like mountain climbing where there is a more then reasonable chance you will survive if you just pay attention. to what your doing. Here, unless ALL you do is boom N zoom the fringes of a furball the odds of your surviving are stacked greatly against you no matter how careful you are.