Author Topic: MA "merge" - without being shot in the face  (Read 2192 times)

Offline wetrat

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« on: February 27, 2005, 04:06:38 AM »
People are constantly whining about being shot in the face on merges, and everyone in the know tells these whiners that HO's are easy to avoid. Well, that's great and all, but if someone is unable to avoid a HO (apparently this is difficult for some.... don't ask me why), then it's unlikely that they'll be able to figure out how to avoid it just because we tell them it's easy.

So, having said that, here  is a film of what I tend to do (don't bother watching after I kill the niki - it's just me dweebing around for a few minutes). There are many ways to merge with HO tards, but this one tends to reel the idiots in well. Basically, just dive a little, and try to have one of your wings pointed at their cockpit on the merge, do a quick immelman and react to whatever your current victim is doing. The first guy I do this to is kind of clueless and has no idea what to do after the merge - this is the norm. The second, the N1K, is a decent stick who takes the bait and says "oops."

Note: Common sense applies here. If you're flying a brick (a dora, for example), don't be this aggressive merging with a hurricane.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2005, 03:13:57 PM by wetrat »
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Offline Happy1

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2005, 01:28:24 PM »
Hi wetrat :)  tried downloading ur film but keep getting the following error msg:

                  The page cannot be found

Would u pls fixit?  Thx  ;)

Happy1  :D

Offline wetrat

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2005, 03:14:36 PM »
fixed... uploaded this at like 5am and forgot to upload it zipped.
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Re: MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2005, 07:27:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wetrat
People are constantly whining about being shot in the face on merges, and everyone in the know tells these whiners that HO's are easy to avoid. Well, that's great and all, but if someone is unable to avoid a HO (apparently this is difficult for some.... don't ask me why), then it's unlikely that they'll be able to figure out how to avoid it just because we tell them it's easy.


Just a quick comment.........

I've noticed alot of guys come in over the last few months who used to fly AW and instead of jumping right into AH or WB or something else, they took some time off like I did.  There have also been some from WB and other sims, but most of those didnt have to deal with being rusty on top of learning a new Flight Model.  I know I know, get to the point.

In AW the classic merge was head to head.  We didnt really have to worry about HOs because the chance of one of those shots landing was next to nil, and the chance of the few that might land doing serious damage was almost beyond belief.  It was drummed into our heads that ammo spent on the merge was wasted, and to ignore it if the other guy started spraying lead.

Old habits die hard.  Reflex reactions you train yourself to make are very hard to retrain later (at least for me).  Time after time, I find myself setting up for that headon pass, thinking about what this guy is going to do, how I'm going to react, playing scenes over in my head.........and then when its too late to really do anything else remembering I have to worry about HOs and trying to pull my nose far enough out that I wont be an easy target.

Even after you make it past that intial merge, you try to use the vertical and there he is again, nose to nose.  Will he try it this time?  Try to get some horizontal separation in the Immelman and try it again.  Now he has an angles shot, and I'm wasting more and more E..............

AH doenst just mean learning a new Flight Model to a guy like me, its entirely new tactics.  Allowing HO's means I have to take all I ever learned about how you can make an opening move, and rewrite my play book.  The hardest part is, I cant let myself go on "autopilot" anymore and try to think ahead.  I have to concentrate on each move as I'm flying it, or I'll be putting myself right in front of the other guy's guns.  I still do it too often, although I think I'm getting much better.  Obviously I dont dont adapt as quickly as some others lol.  After about a year and a half or so of this, its starting to mesh but I have a long way to go.

Maybe this will help you a bit in understanding why its hard for some of us to avoid the HO.

Offline wetrat

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2005, 10:03:09 PM »
Sounds to me like you just need to learn how to avoid nose-nose turns and get in to some form of nose-tail turn or rolling scissor. That's partly why I try to merge the way I show in the film - the chances of me being shot in the face in the first few turns are almost nil. Occasionally I can see that we're going to end up turning nose-nose (usually happens with spits, hurris, etc when I'm in something like a ki84 or 109F) a turn beforehand and have time to either extend a bit or try something new. If you're confident enough in your flying, you can also start off by giving them your 6... I know ManeTMP does this all the time, and I do it with planes I can't run down.
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Offline SFCHONDO

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2005, 11:31:34 PM »
I receive the file as a .rar file. Doesn't work in the film viewer. what is a .rar file?
        HONDO
DENVER BRONCOS    
   
  Retired from AH

Offline Estes

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2005, 11:44:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SFCHONDO
I receive the file as a .rar file. Doesn't work in the film viewer. what is a .rar file?


it's another form of zip file.

Download winrar to unzip it. Winrar supports .zip files as well.

Just google winrar.

Offline Lye-El

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2005, 09:55:40 AM »
The HO seemed to be Standard operating procedure this weekend. If you dodged the HO you could see his guns firing or hear them chatter as he went past.  As I was doing mostly base defense I was usually low and relatively slow.  So the dive under loop over thing was out. *Thanks Hammer*

I got frustrated.

  At one point I took up  g10s with gondolas and  did head on merges. If I saw the other guys guns light up I pulled the trigger. If not I flew past and died the usually way. :)  

At least with the G10, he died too.

On another note, I seem to have a hard time getting guns on target. Be it on a ground target, a bomber, fighter what ever.  It seems I go past the target one way and then the other, back and forth.

Could I have something set up wrong or do I just suck that bad. My stick is an x-45 not too old so I have pretty much ruled that out. Same problem with the off line drones so I have ruled out buck fever.


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline WDOT4W

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2005, 10:09:59 AM »
Wetrat,

Great films, I'm doin something close to your technique, sept I try & pull them twards me, then turn early (hi/low/whatever) denying them the shot (usually). but your better marksman than I am...

Great Shooting!!  

>>On another note, I seem to have a hard time getting guns on target. Be it on a ground target, a bomber, fighter what ever. It seems I go past the target one way and then the other, back and forth.

Could I have something set up wrong or do I just suck that bad. My stick is an x-45 not too old so I have pretty much ruled that out. Same problem with the off line drones so I have ruled out buck fever.<<

Sounds like you're trying to shoot too far away, try gettin closer ... relax the hand on the stick & "squeeze" ... I'm rather new to AH2 & someone suggested this for me when I complained about my gunnery... and it worked very well so far...

If it's 400+, I wait til they're around 350 b4 tryin a burst...

hope this helps...


Offline wetrat

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2005, 12:14:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lye-El
If you dodged the HO you could see his guns firing or hear them chatter as he went past.
When that happens, I know I've got an easy kill. No decent stick is gonna try to joust.
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Offline Soda

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2005, 01:42:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wetrat
When that happens, I know I've got an easy kill. No decent stick is gonna try to joust.


Not always the case, quite often HO's come down to situation.  Someone who has few options (out of energy, surrounded, being bounced) may HO simply to try and make you re-think the likely outcome in order so that they can improve their situation.  For someone that has better options that accepting the HO, the fact the enemy may persist in trying to HO (regardless if he has other options or not) then you should be able to convert that into a position of advantage (typically angular advantage).

Face it though, if you are all over someone and give up a HO opportunity for the enemy, if he knows it may be the best opportunity he has why wouldn't he take it?

Offline Zaphod

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2005, 03:57:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Soda
Not always the case, quite often HO's come down to situation.  Someone who has few options (out of energy, surrounded, being bounced) may HO simply to try and make you re-think the likely outcome in order so that they can improve their situation.  For someone that has better options that accepting the HO, the fact the enemy may persist in trying to HO (regardless if he has other options or not) then you should be able to convert that into a position of advantage (typically angular advantage).

Face it though, if you are all over someone and give up a HO opportunity for the enemy, if he knows it may be the best opportunity he has why wouldn't he take it?


Couldn't agree more.....

I used to HO on merges when I first started playing AH (after I learned that the HO shots "counted").  I quickly figured out (was taught) that is was better for me to work on a merge that resulted in angular advantage rather than HO.  I then learned (was taught) the best way to avoid the HO  and gain angles on a merge.  There is NO superduper secret manuever that avoids all HO shots, so I get hit on occasion and sometimes outright killed by a HO.  To my way of thinking the other guy and I are playing the odds.  Odds favor gaining position rather than attempting a HO in my opinion (if you attempt it, he has the easiest HO shot available).  That's what works best for me.....if I have the energy to maneuver.  However.....

The MA is a fluid environment.  What starts as fairly even or advantageous odds can quickly turn the other direction (makes the MA fun in my opinion).  This can result in someone finding themselves outnumbered, outgunned and out E'd pretty quick.  At that point why would that person give up ANY shot opportunity?  You really can't ask them to lay down and die because they are at some sort of disadvantage that should cost them the fight (numbers, E...doesnt really matter).  I for one will not....if I'm in that position and you cross my guns, I'm shooting...period.  I'll probably die anyway....but I'm taking as many with me as I can.  If I happen to live it makes the victory that much sweeter.

In short the HO as a last ditch shot made out of desperation is fine as far as I'm concerned.  Sometimes it's all you have.  It's crazy to assume a guy isn't going to shoot if he has the opportunity.  Most whines from HO shots are because a guy lost a fight that he felt he shouldn't have....and many times made to soothe a wounded ego.  

I think most folks in the MA feel like they can or have the potential to beat most anyone in the arena....or they wouldn't be here....hence the whines when they lose (I'm so guilty of this by the way).

I would be willing to bet that EVERYONE that has played AH for any length of time at all has fired a HO shot at least once.  Complaining about being shot down by a HO just lets everyone know that you got beat....so lately I have really been trying to be silent in the complaints side lol.


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Offline Nomak

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2005, 05:04:06 PM »
Its a good tactic to learn Wet.  Thx for posting it for others to see.

c yas up.... Dave

Offline wetrat

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2005, 01:15:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Soda
Not always the case, quite often HO's come down to situation.  Someone who has few options (out of energy, surrounded, being bounced) may HO simply to try and make you re-think the likely outcome in order so that they can improve their situation.  For someone that has better options that accepting the HO, the fact the enemy may persist in trying to HO (regardless if he has other options or not) then you should be able to convert that into a position of advantage (typically angular advantage).

Face it though, if you are all over someone and give up a HO opportunity for the enemy, if he knows it may be the best opportunity he has why wouldn't he take it?
I wouldn't merge with a guy if he's being gangbanged... I'd maneuver in such a way as to join in on the gangbanging to avoid the trouble. I guess what I meant by "HO" in my original post is the  idiotic jouosting people try - exactly like the guy in the f4u I killed was trying to do. You can hear his 50's chattering away in vein. I'll shoot people in the face when I'm outnumbered as well (provided his guns aren't pointed at me and I'm not winning the fight), but that's different. I won't line up with some banana from 4k out to joust... the point of this thread is to teach those not in the know how to avoid said joust and kill said jouster ;)
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Offline WDOT4W

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MA "merge" - without being shot in the face
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2005, 06:03:50 AM »
OKOK,

I guess I need help... I got shot in the face 3 times over the weekend thinking the whole way I'd made them miss ... (sigh)