Author Topic: Discussion about objectionable skins  (Read 3064 times)

Offline oboe

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« on: March 04, 2005, 04:15:02 PM »
Not sure if anyone else has run into this, but since I had a skin declined for being objectionable, I thought it might help to have some discussion on the matter.    I don't recall any previous discussions (beyond whether swastikas were allowable or not, and that issue has been clearly settled in my mind anyway).

The skin in question is George Laven's "Itsy Bitsy II", and the offensive nature of it should be obvious from the inset in the lower left corner of the screenshot below:



Close inspection reveals that the hand is actually facing palm out, which is a pretty goofy way to flip someone the bird but I think the meaning of the gesture still comes across.

I'm a poor judge because there is very little WWII era noseart that I find offensive.   Its all just history to me - these were young men in life and death situations and I consider the risque artwork to be a way to blow off steam.   Skuzzy's email said the skin could be approved if I removed the finger and changed it into a fist, which I started to do, but didn't feel right about.    That young pilot painted that image on his plane and then risked his life and limb in it for his country.   I couldn't bring myself to knowingly misrepresent his aircraft just so I could have another skin in the game.   As a skinner I take pains to make as accurate a representation of my subject as possible.

How do you guys feel about offensive skins, and 'toning' them down to make them acceptable?  

After some research, I found some other skins which I think HTC might find objectionable:

Phillip Goldstein's "Jew Boy", which could be interpreted as a racial or religious slur:


Or "Big bellybutton Bird II", with its obvious profanity:


And maybe some figures of completely naked women are unacceptable as well, e.g. the large scale reclining nude on the P-39 "Air-a-Cutie":

(Assuming we get a P-39 someday :) )    Though I think Kev367 has Spitfire in game that does depict a naked woman.

I never really thought about it before, but I've decided my feeling is its better to be true to the skin than to revise it for the game's sake.   If that means it's too offensive to put in the game, then so be it.

PS - this is a real disappointment for me, as I believe its possible I'm related (though distantly) to the pilot.   Also the unusual locations of the black patches on the nacelles and the black nose make it a very distinctive P-38.   I've never seen this scheme before.   It really grew on me as I worked on it, which is probably why I never thought about whether it would be too offensive for the game.    From what I learned of the pilot through email conversations with his nephew, he is probably just as happy now knowing his paint job is still getting people in trouble!

All.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 05:05:48 PM by oboe »

Offline killnu

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2005, 04:57:08 PM »
if that is offensive, i wouldnt change it.

hmm...thought about something, mama said if you dont have anything good to say, then dont say anything at all.
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Offline oboe

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2005, 05:10:04 PM »
Your mama gave you some good advice, but I'm not sure I take your meaning.   It sounds like you agree that skins should be kept strictly historical, and if deemed offensive then they just shouldn't be in the game?

btw - does anyone know if "Itsy Bitsy II's" scheme is truly unique?
Maybe he had a squad mate with a less offensive skin that I could modify Itsy Bitsy into?

Also, I have no intention of ranting against HTC.   This is their game and entirely their call.    The skin submission guidelines don't say much about objectionable elements in skins, though, so it might be beneficial if we can come to some sort of mutual understanding within the skinning community...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 05:12:54 PM by oboe »

Offline sullie363

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2005, 05:38:16 PM »
I'm not offended by those skins at all.  I'm even a little annoyed at HT for turning them away.

Besides, I think Itsy Bitsy sums up a lot of feelings in this game quite nicely.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 05:40:38 PM by sullie363 »
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Offline Skuzzy

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2005, 05:50:09 PM »
There really is no point in discussing this.  Common sense dictates what is acceptable.
We are all for historical accuracy, but we have to balance that with today's realities.  It is a game.  It is no longer 1944.

If the skinner choses to make modifications to a skin to make it acceptable, then that is fine.  If they do not wish to do so, then that is fine as well.
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Offline SELECTOR

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2005, 06:05:42 PM »
oh boy!

only in america, as they say

Offline Cobra412

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2005, 06:25:05 PM »
I really appreciate what all the skinners do here.  Even the ones that I'm about to name.  I see though this is about being politically correct.  I myself have absolutely no problem with anything that was painted on WWII era aircraft.  I actually wish we could still have that same kind of personal touch to our current military airframes.

In Oboes defense that nose art can't be nearly as offensive as some that are already depicted in the game.  We are trying to be politically correct and I can understand that but how can it be a one way street?  A hand that is giving the bird is no more offensive in many cases then the aircraft I'm going to list below.  I don't have a problem with these airframes nor their nose art but which would be considered more offensive in our current society, the finger or nudity.  It really depends on the person and for some their parents. Even if it were changed to 2 fingers up would it indicate peace or would it be the British version of the finger?  Guess it would depend on just exactly who was looking at it.

I'd just like to say I appreciate what the following skinners have done for this game.  I'm not trying to get your skins removed by any means.  You all have worked way to hard for the rest of the community.  Here are the airframes we have depicting nudity.

Spitfire Mk V: 410FS/RCAF by Kev367th.
B-24Js: 11BG/431BS by United.  43BG/64BS by Waffle. 446BG/705BS by Greenbo.  90BG/319BS by Greenbo.

So where do we draw the line?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 06:28:25 PM by Cobra412 »

Offline killnu

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2005, 06:30:51 PM »
Oboe, i was agreeing with you.  just felt it best not to rant because HTC would frown upon it and probably edit my post, i see skuzzy has already stopped by.
i just think it is sad what society has come too.  it is fine to virtually kill somebody, but not to have a picture of a middle finger...oh well.  i deal with enough of the "politically correct" crap at work  ( im in the Navy), just hate to see it on the game i play away from work i guess.  

great job on the skins regardless, keep it up!!:aok :aok
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Offline Shane

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2005, 07:15:50 PM »
it's not about "offensive" "art" per se, but rather about legalities involved with european countries when it comes to displaying nazi symbols.

it's that simple.  if they changed their laws, then HTC would more than likely allow submissions of such symbols in their historical context.
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Offline killnu

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2005, 07:21:37 PM »
skane,  i understand that, but go back and look at the original post, with the pic a P38, not a LW plane.  it has a middle finger painted on it, not a swastika.
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Offline Shane

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2005, 07:40:32 PM »
oh, my bad for skimming the post.

hmmm, yeah, don't see why HTC would turn it down since it's even on a commercialized 1/32 scale model, which is beside the point anyway.

boo on HTC on this decision!  for one thing, no one forces you to chose that skin if you find it offensive, and secondly it's way too small to be seen by someone you're engaged with.
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Offline Kev367th

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2005, 07:42:20 PM »
Looking at it isn't it actually more of a 'number 1' finger as opposed to the bird.
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Offline Cobra412

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2005, 07:55:35 PM »
Kev I've looked around and some of the decals look as if it's the middle finger and some look like it's saying number one.

Offline oboe

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2005, 08:03:33 PM »
Yes, I think the swastika issue has been settled quite clearly in the past.   And the purpose of this thread is by no means to cry foul or to whine about having a skin declined.   As I say, I'm disappointed, but I believe I understand HTC's position and cannot fault them for it.    

Skuzzy's remark about common sense dictating what is acceptable zeroes in perfectly on the issue (thanks, Skuzzy).  What happened to my common sense that I should have submitted such a skin?   And why have no posters here also agreed with HTC that this skin is objectionable?    It seems to me that we must not have a "common" sense about this, then, and that is really what I'm trying to get us to express opinions on.

What do you guys think about some of the examples I posted above?   Truly, the only one I would've had a concern about is "Jew Boy" because I'm not sure everyone would understand the defiance in the pilot's sentiment as he had it painted on his plane.  I'd be concerned some people might think of it as a slam against Jewish people.   But what do you guys think?

Also, what do you as skinners think about making changes to a skin to 'tone' it down?    Skuzzy indicates that this would be acceptable to HTC, but should "Big bellybutton Bird II" become simply "Big Bird II"?    Personally that thought makes me shudder more than reading the profanity on the plane, but what about you guys?    Or is "Ass" not objectionable?    Honestly, I do not know...or, I mean, I would've thought it's not, but now I'm not sure.

I think we should talk about this so that we do in fact develop "common" sense about it.      That's all I'm saying.   I'm not disagreeing with HTC that objectionable skins should not be in the game, I'm just wondering if we all really have the same sense of what is objectionable.

If we don't, it might be helpful to include a bullet point in the 'Basic Guidelines' skin submission sticky that gives skinners examples of objectionable elements.    Currently only the swastika is listed as prohibited.  

all!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 08:32:44 PM by oboe »

Offline oboe

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Discussion about objectionable skins
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2005, 08:16:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
Kev I've looked around and some of the decals look as if it's the middle finger and some look like it's saying number one.


Cobra, if you can show me the decal set that shows it's the index finger extended and not the middle finger I would really appreciate it.   The decal set I went from clearly showed the middle finger extended, but that gesture really makes no sense with the 'palm outward' orientation of the hand.     An index finger extended upward makes more sense, and would certainly change the sentiment of the gesture about 100%!

In fact, if your version turns out to be the real one, that makes my skin submission one of the funniest mistakes I ever been involved with!