Author Topic: British Airways 747 loses engine, Again  (Read 1693 times)

Offline Wolfala

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« on: March 06, 2005, 09:14:09 PM »
Murphy's law for Aviation @ work.


A British Airways jet that continued on an 11-hour flight from Los Angeles to London after one of its four engines lost power also flew on three engines on a later flight from Singapore to London, the airline said Friday.  Click on Read More for the full story.

The Boeing 747 left Singapore on Feb. 25 and landed at London's Heathrow Airport the next day, arriving only 15 minutes behind schedule, BA spokesman Jay Marritt said.

Three hours into the 14-hour flight, an oil pressure indicator showed there was a problem with one of the engines, which the captain shut down as a precaution, Marritt said. It was the captain's decision to continue with Flight 18, which was carrying 356 passengers, he added.

"It's still very safe to fly a 747 on three engines," Marritt said. "It is certified to do so."




Six days earlier, the same aircraft lost power in one of its engines shortly after taking off from Los Angeles International Airport.

The pilot made an emergency landing in Manchester, England, about 160 miles short of London, because the Boeing 747 ran low on fuel after facing headwinds that were stronger than expected, the Federal Aviation Administration said.

The failed engine was later replaced in London, Marritt said. The aircraft then flew to Melbourne, Australia, before continuing to Singapore. It was on the return flight from Singapore, covering 6,765 miles, that the replacement engine failed, The Wall Street Journal reported.

"It was the No. 2 engine that failed but in totally different circumstances. It's one of those very strange coincidences," Marritt said.

The FAA and British aviation officials are investigating the Feb. 19 flight from Los Angeles to London to determine whether any regulations were violated.

"We are concerned," said Laura Brown, an FAA spokeswoman.

The decision not to return that flight after the engine lost power raised concerns about a new European Union law which requires European carriers to reimburse passengers for substantial delays. Those payouts can be hundreds of dollars per passenger.

After the first incident, the British Airways pilots' union issued a statement saying the new regulation could pressure pilots to take risks to save their employers money. British Airways denied that financial considerations were part of the crew's decision to continue the flight from Los Angeles.

U.S. officials said they have no evidence the airline's decision to continue on was influenced by the regulation.

"We would never compromise the safety of our passengers," said British Airways spokeswoman Diane Fung on Monday. "The plane is certified to fly on three engines. It is perfectly safe to do so. The pilots are trained for such situations."


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Offline RTSigma

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2005, 10:03:45 PM »
Its funny how something goes wrong, due to maintenance or some stupid thing that isn't a big deal, and people go around saying "OMG THIS IS TERRIBLE I CAN"T BELIEVE THAT STUFF WEARS OUT THE COMPANY SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN!!"

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Offline Wolfala

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2005, 10:20:21 PM »
Yea, just some days you have bad luck. But lawyers don't like to hear that.


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Offline Chairboy

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2005, 10:25:53 PM »
I don't think people are that astonished that the engine failed...  but still a bit irked that the engine failed ON TAKEOFF at LAX and then they decided to keep going across the Atlantic.

Then it was additionally interesting that the same plane and SAME engine pod.  Engine failures on 747s are rare, and that the same plane had the problem twice...  and the same engine pod...
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Offline Cobra412

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2005, 10:50:23 PM »
I'm just curious but for those you who don't work aircraft do you really think there is some magic wand that fixes something right everytime on the first shot?  Do you also think that once it's all put back together after a fix there's absolutely no chance something else may have broken in the process?  I'm sorry but it's not uncommon for something like this to happen.  Anyone in the maintenance world can tell you that.  

Something as simple as disconnecting a cannon plug from the component and fixing one failure (a wire) only to have it fail for something else (another wire) that broke in that same cannon plug once tension or vibrations were induced on the component is not abnormal.

You don't have the time to go through all 100+ wires to ensure they are all perfect.  That would require atleast 5 to 6 hours of maintenance alone.  You'd have to pull a wire and check it and then reinstall it.  It's not as simple as it may sound.  Even if it weren't a wire, turbine motors are notorious for having multiple failures.  You could have one motor break as many as 3 times or more back to back.  I've seen it more than once in my career.

Offline Wolfala

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2005, 10:53:02 PM »
Cobra,

Those of us here that are drivers in RL know this - we accept it as that. I think the story was just illustrating that '**** happens' in real life - whether in aviation or anywhere. Its just a run of the dice.

Wolf


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Offline Cobra412

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2005, 10:58:40 PM »
I hear ya Wolfala.  I just don't see why it's a huge thing is all.  I can understand not wanting to fly over the pond with a motor out.  Our guys won't even do that unless they are half way over the pond when it happens.  

What I find kind of funny is that some say "it's suspicious the same motor failed twice".  It's obvious that they have never worked in this career field.

Offline Toad

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2005, 12:10:02 AM »
Quote
121.565 Loss of an engine - must report to ATC

- on 2 engine A/C - land at nearest suitable airport in time
- on 3 or more engine A/C - can land at other than the nearest suitable airport in time if it is just as safe (but a report is the req'd to ops manager and ops manager must send a copy to FSDO in 10 days of your return to base


Most airline Ops Specs I'm familiar with require "nearest suitable" even for their 3+ engine aircraft. Not sure about BA, of course.

Funny this happens only two days prior to this flight the European Union had instituted a new policy of making airlines compensate passengers for delays.

The airline would have had to pay travellers €210,000 ($280,000) — €600 ($788) apiece — if they got to London's Heathrow Airport more than five hours late.

Coincidence?
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Offline Chairboy

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2005, 12:23:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
What I find kind of funny is that some say "it's suspicious the same motor failed twice".  It's obvious that they have never worked in this career field.
What I find funny is that someone who's unfamiliar with the story would comment with such authority.  It wasn't the same engine.  They replaced the engine, and the NEW engine (in the same bay) failed.

That's what I find interesting.  I'm not trying to imply causation, just noting that it's odd, considering how often (not very) 747s lose engines.
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Offline Rolex

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2005, 12:33:40 AM »
A Rook, a Knight and a Bish were seated next to each other. The captain announced that an engine was being shut down as a precaution and they would be a little late getting to their destination, but there was no safety hazard.

A short time later, the captain anounced that a second engine would have to shut down, but there was no safety hazard. The Rook calculated they would be 58 minutes late to their destination.

The captain announced again that the 3rd engine was overheating and would be shut down. The Knight calculated they would be 1 hour and 28 minutes late.

The Bish said, "I hope nothing happens to that last engine or we'll be up here all day."

Offline Cobra412

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2005, 12:42:57 AM »
Chairboy it's all the same.  Whether it's the same pod or the same engine.  There's no magical fix for failures.  Without knowing what maintenance did in regards to troubleshooting we can sit here and guess what really caused it.  Simple fact is there are such things as intermittent failures.  They aren't the easiest thing to trouble shoot.  

If they came up with nothing when they troubleshot the initial failure they could have very well said just change the motor.  It could also have been called to change the motor without troubleshooting by the maintenance supervisor.  No one really knows and probably won't ever know for sure.  

Simple fact is these systems are not a piece of cake to troubleshoot.  I'll pay any person to come here and try to fix one of the airframes we have here when it has an intermittent failure.  Heck for that matter even if it isn't intermittent.  We'll see which one component out of 9 they'll choose before they find the right one.  Or we'll see them change them all and then start searching through hundreds of different wires with 50 different scenarios that can cause that one particular failure.

Again no such thing as a magic wand.  Sometimes you find it the first time sometimes you don't find it for days.

Offline SuperDud

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2005, 01:09:42 AM »
Have ta agree with Cobra on this. The engine could be fine, have you ever seen all the "plumbing" thats going into, around, through that engine? It just takes one little short or numerous other things to stop an engine from running. Normally it is the simple little wire and rarely the engine itself. Most likely is something other than the engine that is failing, which then causes the engine to fail. At work, when we have to investigate an engine that won't run we normally start with the little things and work our way up to the engine itself being the problem. Would be highly unlikely (but not impossible) that it's the engines themselves.
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Offline beet1e

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2005, 03:13:55 AM »
It's not necessarily a new situation. In 1976, I was with some friends returning home from a holiday in Spain, and was flying from Barcelona. The intended destination had been East Midlands, but a diversion was made to London Gatwick. We were told that a defective engine was the cause. (The aircraft was a 4 engine job - I think it might have been a B707)

On disembarking the plane after landing at Gatwick, the captain was standing by the door, discussing the matter with an interested party. His words were something like "...no real problem, just that one of the engines was not developing full power". When asked how soon into the flight the fault had come to his attention, he added "oh, I knew about it on the ground at Barcelona".

The new EU legislation? I didn't realise they had it out the door so soon. I don't think it's designed to target the major airlines as much as the cheap no-frills airlines. What has been happening is that if a flight has to be cancelled (eg. owing to bad weather), the cheapo airlines leave the passengers to fend for themselves. At best that can mean being left to bed down in an airport lounge, or else pay for their own accommodation (bang goes the cheap deal) or in some cases suffer the expense of buying a one-way ticket on another airline.

Within the last two years, predicted turbulence for the route to be flown forced easyJet to operate one of its flights with only a 90% passenger loading. How did they handle it? The unlucky 10% were deemed to be those who checked in later than the rest, and were apprised of the situation in the gate lounge, and told that they could wait to see if there was any room on another easyJet flight (the next day) or else make their own arrangements. No accommodation was provided.

Offline mora

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2005, 03:53:30 AM »
The new legislation is total BS and it's obviously designed to protect the national carriers from LCC competition. It also favors dinosaurs like BA over small companies with small fleets and high utilization rates.

Offline Toad

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British Airways 747 loses engine, Again
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2005, 09:54:13 AM »
Sooner or later the BA Ops Specs (Operations Specifications) are going to come to light. For them to operate in the US, they have to submit their Ops Specs to our FAA and they have to be approved.

Either this decision was within their Ops Specs or it was not. If it was, this is no big deal it is literally "normal operating procedure".

If this decision was outside their Ops Specs, ie: the book says land "at the nearest suitable airport", someone at BA is going to get hammered. The pilot for certain and the dispatcher too, most likely. Someone has to take the fall and it will be a "little guy", even if it was the VP Flight Ops that directed the Dispatcher to tell him to bring it home.

VP's don't get blamed. Period.
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