Father of the Musclecar dies.

[Roscoroo]

62 cat was the swiss cheese car ..

I think i'll let ya all argue somemore befor i really ring in and set ya all straight

[GtoRA2]

Bah, set us strait now!

I named my moms cat Catalina.

[Lizking]

Chevelle was the first LITTLE CAR with a big bellybutton motor, and it was in 1960, and Deloran was a hack, not the father of musculy cars.  There is no bigger pc of **** than the Delorean, except maybe the Briklin, which at least looked cool and had an actual motor.

[Stony]

GtoRa2, I never said my 409 was the ****e, I just said it was a muscle car. IMO, a muscle car is any car that's a typical daily driver that has an option for a big motor with lots of horsepower. {i.e. A Tempest with the big motor became the GTO. The Camero and Mustangs were Pony cars, but had the option of a fast motor. The "full sized" Chevys came with any engine from a six to a 409(396, 427 & 454 in later years)}. Here's a list compiled by a site devoted to muscle cars. It looks like the 67 GTO made it to number 47 on the list of the 50 fastest muscle cars.

50 FASTEST MUSCLECARS
# YEAR/MODEL ET/MPH ENGINE HP TRANS GEAR SOURCE
1 1966 427 Cobra 12.20@118 427 8V 425 4-Speed 3.54 CC 11/65
2 1966 Corvette 427 12.8@112 L72 427 425 4-Speed 3.36 CD 11/65
3 1969 Road Runner 12.91@111.8 440 Six BBL 390 4-Speed 4.10 SS 6/69
4 1970 Hemi Cuda 13.10@107.12 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 3.54 CC 11/69
5 1970 Chevelle SS454 13.12@107.01 454 LS6 450 4-Speed 3.55 CC 11/69
6 1969 Camaro 13.16@110.21 427 ZL1 430 4-Speed 4.10 HC 6/69
7 1968 Corvette 13.30@108 427 6V 435 4-Speed 3.70 HC 5/68
8 1970 Road Runner 13.34@107.5 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 SS 12/69
9 1970 Buick GS Stage I 13.38@105.5 455 Stage I 360 automatic 3.64 MT 1/70
10 1968 Corvette 427 13.41@109.5 L72 427 425 4-Speed 3.55 CD 6/68
11 1969 Charger 500 13.48@109 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 4.10 HR 2/69
12 1968 Charger 13.50@105 426 Hemi 425 automatic 3.23 CD 11/67
12 1970 Plymouth Superbird 13.50@105 426 Hemi 425 ? ? ?
14 1968 Road Runner 13.54@105.1 426 Hemi 425 automatic 3.55 CD 1/69
15 1973 Trans Am 13.54@104.29 455 SD 310 automatic 3.42 HR 6/73
16 1969 Corvette 13.56@111.1 427 L88 430 automatic 3.36 HR 4/69
17 1969 Super Bee 13.56@105.6 440 Six Pack 390 automatic 4.10 HR 8/69
18 1969 Boss 429 Mustang 13.60@106 Boss 429 375 4-Speed 3.91 HC 9/69
19 1970 Challenger R/T 13.62@104.3 440 Six Pack 390 automatic 3.23 CC 11/69
20 1970 Torino Cobra 13.63@105.9 429 SCJ 370 automatic 3.91 SS 3/70
21 1968 Biscayne 13.65@105 427 L72 425 4-Speed 4.56 SS 4/68
22 1964 Polara 500 13.70@107.37 426 4V 365 4-Speed 3.23 HC 2/64
23 1969 GTX 13.70@102.8 440 4V 375 automatic 4.10 MT 1/69
24 1969 Dart 440 13.71@105 440 4V 375 automatic 3.55 CC 5/69
25 1971 Road Runner 13.71@101.2 440 Six BBL 390 automatic 4.10 CC 1/71
26 1971 Cuda 13.72@106 440 Six BBL 390 automatic 4.10 SS 4/71
27 1971 Corvette 13.72@102.04 454 LS6 450 4-Speed 3.36 CL 8/71
28 1971 Super Bee 13.73@104 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 MT 12/70
29 1968 Hurst/Olds 13.77@103.91 455 W-30 390 automatic 3.91 SS 8/68
30 1970 Hemi 'Cuda 13.78@101.2 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 MT 9/69
31 1968 Firebird 13.79@106 400 HO 335 4-Speed N/A HR 3/68
32 1967 Corvette 13.80@108 427 6V 435 4-Speed 3.55 HR 5/67
33 1965 Catalina 13.80@106 421 6V ? 4-Speed 3.42 CD 3/65
34 1969 Super Bee Six Pack 13.80@104.2 440 Six BBL 390 automatic 4.10 CD 7/69
35 1971 Boss 351 Mustang 13.80@104 Boss 351 330 4-Speed 3.91 MT 1/71
36 1966 Satellite 13.81@104 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 3.54 CD 4/66
37 1969 Coronet R/T 13.83@102.27 440 4V 375 4-Speed 4.10 SS 4/69
38 1968 Cyclone GT 13.86@101.69 428 CJ 335 automatic 4.11 MT 8/68
39 1969 Nova SS 396 13.87@105.1 396 4V 375 automatic 3.55 HR 7/69
40 1969 Shelby GT-500 13.87@104.52 428 CJ 335 4-Speed 3.91 SS 9/69
41 1969 Cyclone Cobra Jet 13.88@101.7 428 CJ 335 automatic 4.11 MT 1/69
42 1970 Olds 4-4-2 W-30 13.88@95.84 455 W-30 370 automatic 3.42 CC 11/69
43 1962 Corvette 13.89@105.14 327 FI 360 4-Speed 4.10 HR 1/62
44 1969 Barracuda 13.89@103.21 440 4V 375 automatic 4.10 SS 8/69
45 1962 Catalina 13.90@107 421 4V ? 4-Speed 4.30 MT 5/62
46 1969 Mustang Mach I 13.90@103.32 428 CJ 335 automatic 3.50 CL 3/69
47 1967 GTO 13.90@102.8 400 RA 360 automatic 4.33 CL 10/67
48 1970 Trans Am 13.90@102 400 RA 345 4-Speed 3.91 HR 2/70
49 1970 Torino Cobra 13.99@101 429 4V ? 4-Speed 3.91 MT 2/70
Legend: CC=Car Craft, CD=Car and Driver, CL=Car Life, HC=Hi Performance Cars, HR=Hot Rod, MCR=Muscle Car Review, MM=Mopar Muscle, MT=Motor Trend, SS=Super Stock

     Yes, I noticed that there are no 409s on the list, but it does show you the range of cars that are considered muscle cars from pony cars, to mid-size to full size. Get over "who coined the phrase" muscle car and see that your "narrow" description has a "narrow" fan base.

Daddy luvs ya!

 

[Roscoroo]

Ah the good ole mag list ...  some of those are prepped cars , some arnt . that 67 gto is one of the heaviest on the list and wasnt a prepped car . boy they left alot of factory stock classed cars off that list.

notice the '64 427 thunderbolt isnt in the list that car was a rocketship of its time ,same with the 427 gt/gta fairlane . hell the '65 Gto was a 13.10/.30 car off the showroom.  
 anyone remember that little dart w/ the 340 and a 6 pack ??? or the 69 trans am RA IV ???


(just tossing more crutons in the salad here
)

[2stony]

Originally posted by Roscoroo:

hell the '65 Gto was a 13.10/.30 car off the showroom

     Not even close. I owned one of those and you were lucky to get it in the high 13s on a good day. There's no way a stock 65' Goat w/389 tri-power would get into the low 13s.

[2stony]

Roscoroo, I was wrong. Here's the actual 1/4 performance for a 65' Goat with 3.90 gears, 389 tri-power, 4-speed.

Performance: 389/360 (3x2): 0-60 in 6.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.7 sec @ 99mph.

Hell, my 2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP is faster with a 255hp six. The 65' was actually not very fast.

[Roscoroo]

I guess i better fill in the blanks here ... as for theres alot of stuff you guys dont know about ...

 Well back in the day there were several dealerships across the U.S. were everyone went to by there" factory stock race cars" ..
 sort of like  how you can buy all the ford motorsport stuff outta the ford dealers . Well they did the installs and retune's right there at the dealer back then .

Every once and awhile these cars managed to get hooked up for a magazine test ...

These cars were ussually non insulated , optioned out just for racing . they did everything from changing to thinner head gaskets, to rocker ratio's, recurved distributors, exhaust , and verious other tweeks to get the car light and fast .

Now how I know all this you ask ...
Because I own one of those cars .
It was bought by my dad back when i was a pup .. I aquired it when i was 15 and ive had it for over 25 yrs now ..
Ok the car Its one of 51 built '66 GTO's non insulated , 6 cyl frame , sport coupe, XS 389 tri power , 4 speed, 4.33's , ram air ,rally gages , electronic ignition...  my car ran 12.80's from day one  .. with a cam change and better exhaust it ran 12.30's in the factory classes  . one of the big things that made these cars out perform the others is they left over 350- 400 lbs outta the car when they were built . mine weighs in at 3150 in full dress with the spare in the trunk . an normal '66 weighs 3400+ and a 67 gto weighs close to 3700 in full opt dress .  remember the rule of weight in racing every 100 lbs is equal to 1/10th of a second.


so the magazine tests were very rarely correct in true performance wise for the cars everyone was buying back then . (I sort of have a feeling insurance or other factors came into play )

I've personally owned over 70 gto's/leman's... and ive had a few others 10 or so camaro's ,a roadrunner, a 340 dart , a 69 cougar eliminator , 69 xr-7, malibu's and assorted others over the years .. (ive killed enough of these cars to make ya cry )

I know were several of the super stock dodges and other factory race cars live ... I can show ya everything from swiss cheese cats... to the feared 64 thunderbolts (can you say 11.60's outta the box) want to talk Hemi's I know were theres more of these then you can count ..  I can show ya factory cyl heads that hardly anyone has ever seen or even knows about .

Also remember as tire technology got better alot of these cars got faster .. alot of the mag tests were limited by this back then ..

back in '66/67 pontiac had the 2 "tiger cars" that ran around the drag curcuit that were promotional and they would let ya race one if ya knew who to talk to  . these were the same as what ive got .. if ya look them up u'll see they ran 12.80's - 13.10's  most of the time .

So theres a whole underground world of cars that alot of you guys now know about .. I've lived, breathed, breeded in this world for my whole life .

ok off to work ... befor i get yeowled at ..

[GtoRA2]

Rosco
 I knew about how Pontiac used "special" cars, sometimes gone over by royal pontiac for the magazine test etc.



But I still dont see how that makes me wrong on what a musclecar is.

[lazs2]

gee RPM regale us all again with your story of how your econo crap box beat the big nasty worn out smog era vette that was running on all 5 of it's 8.0 to 1 compression cylinders.

lazs

[2stony]

Roscoroo, nice lineup of cars you've owned. I'm somewhat jealous of a few of them. Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth came out with I believe two cars, one being the Dart and the other a Cuda that came with an 800hp engine and you could order one of them. I think they still have a special class for those at the drags. My 65' GTO ragtop was one of my three favorite cars that I've owned and I have a special place for it because it was my first. The other two are my 65' Impala SS 409 and my 64 Nova 283(both had 4-speeds). I'm getting nostalgic just thinking about them now.

[2stony]

But I still dont see how that makes me wrong on what a musclecar is.

     The horse is dead GtoRa2. Some people agree with you and some people agree with me, so there you are.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
I would not consider a Corvette (you can spell Aston, but not Corvette? ) if I lived in Germany either.

Our roads are not setup for high speed driving either.  The Corvette has the muscle to make the speed, but duration would be of concern on the Autobahn.  It's not legal to go-fast here and when you do, you do it for short burst, which the Corvette will handle well enough.

It's a bit a legend ,at least not true for the whole road network.

I'm sure there is some AutoBahn parts where a horse will be faster than a car

[Furball]

I found that french roads have no speed limit either.....   the 100m or so approaching pedestrian crossings.

Its like normal traffic, then suddenly they reach that 100m and they all hit the pedal to the metal.

Jerks

[Skuzzy]

The parts of Germany I have been too had very nice high speed roads straffo (mostly northern Germany).

I have only been in cities in France so cannot comment on the road conditions outside of the cities.

Italy is quite crazy though.  Roads outside of major cities are a lot of fun.