Author Topic: Serial numbers on bullets?  (Read 3577 times)

Offline SkyWolf

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 599
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2005, 04:55:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan


Whatever the law abiding buy, that's the type of gun criminals end up with, because that's where the criminals get their guns.

Please state your source.

As to ammo, criminals again either steal it, or usually just buy it.

Once again... you certainly seem to have a lot of "facts" at your disposal.

Make a law that requires serial numbers and it will feed through to the criminal guns in time.

Think about this man... THEY FILE THE SERIAL #'s OFF. How can you think in such a head in the sand manner? Don't you ever watch Law and order? :rolleyes:

Woof

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2005, 05:04:07 PM »
yep defending freedom and rights is a great thing for some of you as long as it is a freedom you like.

Raider179
 
 
You're a law abiding guy is it ok for the government to track every purchase you make? Your not braking the law right? So what if the government sees the porn you buy etc?



This is just another BS cali law, like their BS gun safety tests that halved the number of models of firearm you can buy in the state cause the gun makers do not want to pay the stupid test costs for every model.  It was a clever way for the freedom hating liberal avacados in the Cali legislature to ban guns.

I am sure if this gets passed they will make the standard so costly ammo makers either will not bother or the cost will be so high it will double or tripple the cost of ammo.

Just more stupid crap from this worst run state in the country.

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2005, 05:06:05 PM »
As must be painfully obvious to those who actually shoot and know something about firearms, this law was concocted by people who DON"T know anything about them.

Where are they going to laser these magic numbers where they cannot be effected by the firing of the bullet itself?  If they are on the cylinder of the projectile they may well be scraped off by the rifling.

Engraving them across the nose of the projectile wouldn't work for obvious reasons.   Oops, pardon me.  I forgot that the obvious isn't always obvious.  The nose is the first part of the bullet to go to pieces upon striking an object.  If fired at a high enough velocity it will not only mushroom but may well fragment into numerous pieces.  To find the magic numbers, you would have to retrieve all of the fragments.  ALL of them.  

Engraving them on the base of the bullet is unworkable as well.  The base is subjected to temperatures from explosive gases which reach thousands of degrees fahrenheit.  I can't imagine that the numbers would remain unaffected by such extreme heat.

Besides, put enough pressure on the criminals and purps responsible for the vast majority of shootings in the U.S., and they'll just switch to shotguns.

Let's see 'em engrave all THOSE pellets.

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2005, 05:08:36 PM »
You want to Stop gun crime?

Start with making laws that punish the people who use them in a crime. Make it life to use a gun in a crime.

legalise drugs and take that away from the gangs and maybe they will stop killing each other.



And do something about bad parent/parents. How the criminals are raised is the heart of the problem. On top of the lack of opertunity crappy schools in these areas give these kids.

know one wants to talk about that though. It easy to point at a gun and say "guns are bad Mkay"

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2005, 05:40:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins

Let's see 'em engrave all THOSE pellets.


Anything is possible with senators like Feinstein...
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2005, 05:45:17 PM »
Quote
Whatever the law abiding buy, that's the type of gun criminals end up with, because that's where the criminals get their guns.
--------------------------------------------------

Please state your source.


There are many sources that point to this.

Surveys amongst prisoners, FBI crime reports, even John Lott. (Lott claims around 50% of all guns in criminals hands were stolen, iirc)

The Dept of Justice surveys in federal and state prisons in 1997 found that 14% of criminals bought their gun from a dealer, gun show etc, 40% got one from family or friends, 30% bought their gun from a criminal contact, 10% stole the gun they later used in crime themselves.

The FBI reported an average of 180,000 handguns stolen per year in the late 80s and early 90s. I believe the figure has gone down a bit since then, but the FBI still reports over 1 million unrecovered stolen firearms in the last decade, the majority handguns, iirc.

Where do you think these guns go? Think the criminals are throwing these away, and making themselves zip guns instead?

Nearly every gun used in crime in the US was legally manufactured or imported into the US, before getting into the hands of criminals, either before or after being sold to a legitimate buyer.

The guns aren't coming in from abroad, and they aren't being made in illicit factories.

Quote
As to ammo, criminals again either steal it, or usually just buy it.
-----------------------------------------------

Once again... you certainly seem to have a lot of "facts" at your disposal.


You think they are making their own ammo? Why? Why not do what criminals usually do, steal, or use the proceeds from crime to buy.

What's the point of going to extreme lengths to aquire ammunition when it's so easily available?

Quote
Think about this man... THEY FILE THE SERIAL #'s OFF.


Actually, they normally don't, which should tell you just how organised most criminals are.

But I was refering more to new technology than a sime stamped or engraved serial number, like the suggestion the gun could automatically stamp the cartridge case every time it fires. (Note I am not arguing about the technology, I have no idea if it works or not, I was just disputing the fact that some seem to believe criminals guns are somehow not related in any way to legal guns, as if they come from a entirely seperate supply chain)

Quote
Many of those people either cant find work or....they dont want to find work because they make more money via illegal activities.


Take a look at the average IQ of prisoners. These are not intellignet people, by and large. They don't usually have a good work ethic, either, otherwise they wouldn't have taken to crime.

Quote
Ever hear of a zip gun? Zip guns were made by gangs by using car radio antennaes and firing .22 bullets through them. They were very dangerous to the user, but that didnt stop them from being used.


Which sort of highlights the point. Zip guns were crap, dangerous. You'd have to be pretty stupid to use one. The point I was replying to was:
Quote
Of course this method will be perfectly well used to catch those WHO BUY ILLEGAL GUNS AND AMMUNITION. Because obviously, all the criminals will put the serial number on their guns and their bullets.


That implied criminals were making their own guns. They don't, of course, and when they did they used to make rubbish like zip guns.

Quote
You want to Stop gun crime?

Start with making laws that punish the people who use them in a crime. Make it life to use a gun in a crime.


Great idea. It's given me a foolproof plan for stopping murders.

We'll make murder illegal, and give long prison sentences to anyone who carries one out. We could even execute some of them.

That will stop them, no doubt. No-one is going to commit murder if they know they'll go to prison, or even be executed, for it.

We can get rid of all other crime as well. We'll make it illegal to commit crime, then the criminals will stop.

You can rely on it if you like, but I'll still continue to lock my car, and my front door at night.

I'd rather not rely on the criminal to choose a better way, I'd rather try to physically stop him committing crimes.

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2005, 05:52:34 PM »
Nashwin
 Just because a gun is used in a crime does not mean someone dies or is murdered.

Don't be a simpleton.

My way is:

Even if the criminal does not hurt anyone but uses a gun when committing a crime  he goes away for at least 20 years, it may not prevent other criminals from committing crimes but the ones who get pinched and go to jail wont be out in 6 years to do it again.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 05:55:58 PM by GtoRA2 »

Offline stantond

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 576
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2005, 06:04:41 PM »
Stopping stupid proposed laws like these is one of the reasons I belong to the NRA.    You can't battle lunacy with reason, it won't work.  I figured someone had to say that.


Regards,

Malta

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2005, 06:12:41 PM »


For once I disagree with you!

You are not going to file off a laser etched round, not without some real work.  We laser etch all our tools and they are a pain to de-etch.

I'M JUST GOING OFF THE INFO THE ARTICLE GIVES:

this doesnt look like it costs much

There isn't any new laws to ban non-etched ammo

if you guys are this avid about not helping law enforcement enforce current gun laws and/or finding people who use guns for crimes (they are the reason liberals want to take your guns away in the first place) then why do you even buy guns with serial numbers on them?

Sure there's going to be a lot of rounds that are fired in crimes that arent going to have this on it but that doesnt mean that some criminal isnt' going to get careless and use one that does.

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2005, 08:14:28 PM »
The more expensive it becomes to own firearms, hunt, plink, go to the range to practice, the fewer new firearms owners there will be in each generation. Eventualy the 2nd amendmant will be a nice but useless line in the constitution. By that time only criminals and wealthy Liberals will own guns and ammo. It's a gimmic to control access to ammo through the free market. A back door gun ban. California is making it so that only people with discretionary income to waste or criminals will have firearms.

Our Life and Liberty is not for the conveinience of cops. The police are in violation of the constitution in their function as a standing army(paramilitary), but thats another argument. Laws are not tailored for the ease of cops to make their jobs less troublesome. If that becomes the case then we become ruled by the whim of 900,000 men in uniform. Thats on avererage one man with a gun dictating to 3000 tax slave subjects in the U.S. If you make the governments job easier, you give up one more grain of freedom.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline stantond

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 576
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2005, 08:49:01 PM »
Quote
"We'll solve a lot of crimes if this becomes law," said Attorney General Bill Lockyer.


This is an obviously untrue and politically motivated statement.  Serial numbers on bullets would only provide information in homicides or other shooting related crimes that used large caliber handguns with serial number labeled bullets.   Robbery, rape, extortion, burglery and any crime committed with a firearm other than a large caliber handgun would be unaffected.  

Laser etching a number on a copper jacketed 9mm would add more than 1/2 cents per round in cost.  I expect the price of the ammunition would double or triple.   The cost of the laser system, modifications to bullet processing, inventory, quality assurance, and a staff to keep track of these numbers would all be very expensive.   That is before the cost of tracking the rounds after manufacture is addressed.  Now the manufacturer and his distributors must keep records of where the rounds came from, went, and when.  

Ok, say someone is killed by a serial numbered bullet.  The investigators follow the information trail back to Bubba's fish&tackle.  How long must Bubba keep track of who the bullets were sold to and when?  Must Bubba now have a subclass of an FFL?  How many forms of ID must you have to buy bullets?  Is an 'instant background' check necessary?  What if you give ammuntion away, or lose it,  or sell it, or it gets stolen?  

This idea is not a 1/2 cent per bullet increase in the cost per round.  Nor is it practical.  I also wonder, from a purely technical aspect, where could you put a serial number that would stay intact?  I have to question whether a laser etched number on the base of a conventional bullet would survive.  Have they tried this?  Maybe a special 'serial number plate' would be necessary.



Regards,

Malta

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13919
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #86 on: April 27, 2005, 08:50:01 PM »
bustr you are a very silly man...  :rofl :rofl :rofl
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline FX1

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1314
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2005, 09:04:44 PM »
After reading this GOD I LOVE TEXAS!

Offline Airhead

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3369
      • http://www.ouchytheclown.com
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2005, 09:07:28 PM »
I got me an old Rockcrusher reloading press and lots of brass, dies and bullets. It's been in storage for quite a few years but if California passes this law I'll get rich selling unmarked ammo to gangbangers. I might even toss in a blunt with every 100 round purchase.

:D

Offline SkyWolf

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 599
Serial numbers on bullets?
« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2005, 09:44:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
We laser etch all our tools and they are a pain to de-etch.



Not all rounds are jacketed or semi jacketed. De-etching a lead round would be simple enough. We aren't talking Titanium here... it's generally lead or copper. :rolleyes:

Woof