Top 10 All Time Fighters

[Hangtime]

...and ta think I wuz thinking about you when I originally posted it.

[straffo]

Tap tap tap ... hmm sorry it's just my trollmeter which is broke

[streakeagle]

I would assume by looking at the list, that the term "greatest fighter" means dedicated air superiority rather than multi-role fighter-bombers. Even with such a restriction, how can anyone look at the complete historical record of the F-4 from first flight to the present and say it is not one of the greatest air superiority fighters of all time? If you include its multirole capabilities, I wouldn't even hesitate to call it the greatest combat aircraft of all time. How can the F-4 be considered a failure or even average? No aircraft is perfect and later aircraft tend to be designed to overcome the limitations of earlier aircraft, but how can an aircraft that successfully provided air superiority more than any other type from 1962 to 1980 not be worthy to be on this list?

From the year the F-4 first flew, it set a ton of climb and speed records. It was forced on the USAF because it outperformed all of the latest USAF aircraft (F-105, F-104, and F-106). What was it good at? There were no other aircraft that had the balance of speed, load, range, and electronics. I would compare it to the P-38L: big, heavy, powerful. Not the fastest, but very fast. Not the best at maneuverability, but very maneuverable. Climb rate? Almost 2nd to none. Payload and range? Top notch.

As originally produced (F-4B and F-4C), it had three main drawbacks: no gun, poor visibility from the cockpit, and poor stability at high AOAs. The gunpod and F-4E addressed the gun issue. The slats added to the F-4E and F-4S addressed the high AOA issues. Visibility from the cockpit was never really addressed, though it should be noted that its contemporaries generally had the same or worse visibility limitations.

Early versions of the Sparrow and Sidewinder were notoriously unreliable, but Soviet Atolls were even worse. By 1968, The USAF's AIM-7E solved most of the Sparrow's problems except for maneuverabilty and minimum range and the USN's AIM-9D made the Sidewinder into a decent dogfight missile. By 1972, the AIM-7E2 version of the Sparrow was in use by the USAF (reflected in their Sparrow kills) and the AIM-9G/H version of the Sidewinder was in use by the USN (just a step away from being an AIM-9L, a big factor in 1972 Navy kills overlooked by those promoting the benefits of Top Gun).

From 1962 to 1972, there were no operational fighters with a better radar/missile combination. The F-4 dominated air to air combat arena until the arrival of the teen series fighters. Did the F-4 have trouble with MiG-17s? Only because US tactics in Vietnam set up the US forces to be repeatedly ambushed while carrying heavy bomb loads over the same daily routes. A guns only MiG-17 was no better against an F-4 than a Spitfire MkI against a P-51D. The MiG-21 had comparable performance to the F-4. It was a little slower, but it could turn a little better. But it lacked range and payload. In fact, most MiG-21s were built without guns and could carry only 2 (later 4) Atoll missiles. By 1972, the MiG-21s were up-engined and being fitted with gunpods, which finally made them a credible threat to the F-4. The Mirage was largely comparable to the MiG-21, but with a better gun and better avionics. The Israelis preferred the Mirage to the F-4 in air combat because they preferred using guns in turning dogfights. But they still used the F-4 to great advantage with its Sparrow missile capability and even tried to use it to shoot down MiG-25s, something the Mirage could never even consider trying. The BAC Lightning had performance similar to if not better than the F-15. It could even supercruise (long before the F-22 and Eurofighters ). But it achieved that performance by carrying little fuel, avionics, and weapons. The Lightning was pretty much useless in combat compared to the "inferior" F-4. So what aircraft from its generation were so much better fighters that the F-4 doesn't deserved to be called the greatest of its generation and given its continued influence to this day, the greatest ever built?

If you look at the specs of an F/A-18E, you will find that its dimenstions, weight, and performance are all very close to the F-4 with the exception of a bubble canopy and more maneuverability.

5,057 F-4s were not built because it was the cheapest fighter available nor was it because of deceitful marketing. It was by far the best value from 1962 to 1980.

Israel did have trouble in 1973 using F-4Es in dogfights against later up-engined MiG-21s (nearly on par with F-16 turning ability), but that is no different than Bf109s trying to turn fight Spitfires: Use the wrong tactics, get bad results. But Israel has kept and upgraded the F-4 because it is to this day one of the best all-round planes. German F-4Fs are electronically the equal of F/A-18s.

The MiG-21 was also great. It belongs on any all-time greatest fighter list, but ranking it against the F-4: The air to air kill ratio was always in favor of the F-4 even when inferior tactics and training were used by the F-4 pilots. The MiG-21 was never really capable of anything more than short range, clear-weather interceptor/dogfighter (ala Spitfire). Matched head-to-head with all other factors being even, 1 on 1 or 4 on 4, the F-4 would win almost every time. Throw in long range with AWACS control and/or night/adverse weather and the MiG-21 would be out of the fight.

The Soviets respected the F-4 so much that they tried to equal it. Of course they ended up building two major versions, one for air superiority (MiG-23) and one for ground attack (MiG-27). By the time they fielded these types, the F-14 and F-15 had come.

When Egypt finally made peace with Israel and got the right to buy US aircraft, they not only bought F-16s, but made sure to get a decent supply of the aircraft that they respected the most from their previous air battles: F-4Es.

What was the F-4 ever good at? Really Pretty much everything. Besides the previously discussed air superiority, it took an expensive dedicated type like the A-6 or F-111 to bomb any better. In fact, with smart weapons, the F-4 is generally the equal of any other strike aircraft to this day. The A-10 is of course a much better ground attack aircraft, but that is all it really does since it is too slow to do much of anything else. The F-4 was never good at flying slow over ground troops. Any improvement in ground attack the F-16 has over the F-4 comes from modern electronics not any inherent advantages of the design, which are easily retrofitted to the F-4 and have been by the Germans and the Israelis. There is no better Wild Weasel. Its ceiling, speed, range, and payload made the F-4 a great recon aircraft as well.

So the only real limitations of the F-4 regardless of the mission were no bubble canopy and low speed maneuverability, while it tends to equal or exceed other aircraft in all other areas. Since when is small size with turning ability the mark of a great fighter? I always thought speed, climb, payload, range were the true measures and the reason why US types like the F6F, F4U, P-38, P-47, and P-51 were far superior to the Spitfire and Zero. Throw in large numbers of aircraft with co-ordinated tactics and turning ability is almost neutralized as any advantage at all.

[Mini D]

Wow... I've not read such an excuse and caveat laden post before in my life. Smart bombs? LOL!

By the time issues with the F4 were ironed out, it was useless. Blame tactics, strategy, missiles or whatever you want. The F4 did not do anything very well. It was owned by the Mig17.

The plane was built in such numbers because it was a standard airframe used by all branches of the service and the military was standing steadfast with it's decision to go with it.

The F4 served to epitimize beauracracy in the 60's and 70's. While that may be an accomplishment, it's not something that should be getting it on the list.

[Hangtime]

Great read, Streak, and excellent points.. I tend to agree; the Phantom was a remarkable and competent tool in combat.. in the hands of a skilled aircrew it was a match for anything combat capable in the early 70's, and untill the arrival of the Tomcat and Eagle it was America's best ever warbird.

And included, just cause it's a great gawdamned read..

10 May 1972

This was a bad day for the Vietnamese Peoples Air Force, losing eleven aircraft. Navy fighters destroyed eight MiGs, six by VF-96 in USS Constellation (CVA64). Three of the MiG-17s were downed by one VF-96 crew, LT. Randy "Duke" Cunningham and his RIO, LT(JG) Willie Driscoll, flying a Phantom F-4J, ShowTime 100. Combined with two earlier kills on 19 January and 8 May, the victories would make Cunningham and Driscoll the first American aces of the Vietnam War and the first to make all their kills with missiles.

They were participating in a strike against the Hai Dong railyards, on flak suppression, when a score of enemy fighters challenged them.

Cunningham's Phantom carried two AIM-7E Sparrow long-range missiles, eight AIM-9J Sidewinder short-range missiles, and twelve "Rockeye" cluster bombs. After dropping their bombs on some warehouses, Showtime 100 loitered to cover the A-7 fighter-bombers still engaged. Responding to a call for help, Cunningham took his F-4J into a group of MiG-17s ("Frescoes"), two of which promptly jumped them. Heeding a "break" warning from Grant in Showtime 113, Cunningham broke sharply and the lead pursuing MiG-17 overshot him. He instantly reversed his turn, putting the MiG dead ahead; he loosed a Sidewinder and it destroyed the MiG.

Showtime 100 and his wingman Grant climbed to 15,000. Looking belwo, Cunningham saw a scene "straight oout of The Patrol." One flaming MiG was plunging dwon, eight more circled defensively, while three Phantoms went after the MiGs within the wheel. These were at an extreme disadvantage, due to their low energy state.

VF-96 Exec, Cdr Dwight Timm hasd three MiGs on his tail, one being very close, in Timm's blind spot. Seeing the danger to the XO, in Showtime 112, Duke called for him to "break," to clear the Phantom's hotter J-79 engines from the Sidewinder's heat seeker, thus permitting a clear lock on the bandit. But Timm thought the warning was about the other two, distant MiGs, and didn't heed Duke's first call.

After more maneuvering, Cunningham re-engaged the MiG-17 still threatening his XO. He called again for him to break, adding, "If you don't break NOW you are going to die." The XO finally accelerated and broke hard right. The MiG couldn't follow Showtime 112's high speed turn, leaving "Duke" clear to fire.

Calling "Fox Two," Cunningham fired his second Sidewinder while the MiG still inside the minimum firing range. But the high speed of the Fresco worked against it, as the Sidewinder had time to arm and track to its target. It homed into the tail pipe of the MiG-17 and exploded. Seconds later, Cunningham and Driscoll, finding themselves alone in a sky full of bandits, disengaged and headed for the Constellation.

The Third MiG
As they approached the coast at 10,000 feet, Cunningham spotted another MiG-17 heading straight for them. He told Driscoll to watch how close they could pass the MiG's nose, so he could not double back as easily to their six o’clock. While this tactic worked against A-4s back in training at Miramar, it turned out to be a near-fatal mistake here. ... A-4s didn’t have guns in the nose.

The MiG's nose lit up like a Roman candle! Cannon shells shot past their F-4. Duke pulled up vertically to throw off his aim. As he came out of the six-G pull-up, he looked around below for the MiG. MiGs generally avoided climbing contests. They turned horizontally, or just ran away. He looked back over his ejection seat and was shocked. There was the MiG barely 100 yards away! He began to feel numb and his stomach knotted, as both jets roared 8,000 feet straight up.

In an effort to out-climb the MiG, Cunningham went to afterburners, which put him above the enemy aircraft. As he started to pull over the top, the MiG began shooting. This was Cunningham's second near-fatal mistake; he had given his opponent a predictable flight path, and he had taken advantage of it. Duke rolled off to the other side, and the MiG closed in behind.

Not wanting to admit he was getting beaten, he called to Willie, "That S.O.B. is really lucky! All right, we’ll get this guy now!" With the MiG at his four o’clock, he nosed down to pick up speed and energy. Cunningham watched until the MiG pilot likewise committed his nose down. "Gotcha!" he thought, as he pulled up into the MiG, rolled over the top, got behind it. While too close to fire a missile, the maneuver placed Duke in an advantageous position.

He pulled down, holding top rudder, to press for a shot, and the MiG pulled up into him, shooting! He thought, "Maybe this guy isn’t just lucky after all!" The Communist pilot used the same maneuver Duke had just tried, pulling up into him, and forcing an overshoot. The two jets were in a classic rolling scissors. As his nose committed, Duke pulled up into his opponent again.

As they slowed to 200 knots, the MiG's superior maneuverability at low speed would gave him more advantage. A good fighter pilot, like Kenny Rogers' poker player, "knows when to hold, and knows when to fold." This was the MiG's game; it was time to go. When the MiG raised his nose for the next climb, Cunningham lit his afterburners and, at 600 knots airspeed, quickly got two miles away from the MiG, out of his ATOL missile range.

But maybe Duke wasn't such a good poker player, because he went back for more. Cunningham nosed up 60 degrees, the MiG stayed right with him. Just as before, they went into another vertical rolling scissors.

As the advantage swung back and forth, Driscoll called, "Hey, Duke, how ya doin' up there? This guy really knows what he’s doin’. Maybe we ought to call it a day."

This enraged Duke; some "goomer" had not only stood off his attacks but had gained an advantage twice! Not what he wanted to tell his squadron mates back on the Constellation.

"Hang on, Willie. We’re gonna get this guy!"

"Go get him, Duke. I’m right behind you!"

Driscoll strained to keep sight of the MiG, as Duke pitched back towards him for the third time.

Once again, he met the MiG-17 head-on, this time with an offset so he couldn’t fire his guns. As he pulled up vertically he could again see his determined adversary a few yards away. Still gambling, Cunningham tried one more thing. He yanked the throttles back to idle and popped the speed brakes, in a desperate attempt to drop behind the MiG. But, in doing so, he had thrown away the Phantom's advantage, its superior climbing ability. And if he stalled out ...

The MiG shot out in front of Cunningham for the first time, the Phantom’s nose was 60 degrees above the horizon with airspeed down to 150 knots. He had to go to full burner to hold his position. The surprised enemy pilot attempted to roll up on his back above him. Using only rudder to avoid stalling the F-4, he rolled to the MiG’s blind side. He tried to reverse his roll, but as his wings banked sharply, he briefly stalled the aircraft and his nose fell through. Behind the MiG, but still too close for a shot. "This is no place to be with a MiG-17," he thought, "at 150 knots... this slow, he can take it right away from you."

Now the MiG tried to disengage; he pitched over the top and started straight down. Cunningham pulled hard over, followed, and maneuvered to obtain a firing position. With the distracting heat of the ground, Cunningham wasn't sure that a Sidewinder would home in on the MiG, but he called "Fox Two," and squeezed one off. The missile came off the rail and flew right at the MiG. He saw little flashes off the MiG, and thought he had missed. As he started to fire his last Sidewinder, there was an abrupt burst of flame. Black smoke erupted from the Fresco. It didn’t seem to go out of control; the fighter just kept slanting down, smashing into the ground at about 45 degrees angle.

Colonel Toon
The pilot was mis-identified as North Vietnam’s leading ace, "Colonel Toon," allegedly with 13 aerial victories.

Exactly whom "Duke" shot down on his final kill of the day, the one that made him an ace, has been the subject of conjecture. Early on, sources claimed the pilot was the top Vietnamese ace known as "Col. Tomb" in the media. Later research has shed more light on the subject; in fact, "Col. Tomb" did not exist. He was most likely a flight leader or squadron commander of the 923rd Regiment.

Whoever the Vietnamese pilot was, the historic dogfight made "Duke" Cunningham the first US ace of the Vietnam conflict.

[Mini D]

10 May 1972

This was a bad day for the Vietnamese Peoples Air Force, losing eleven aircraft. Navy fighters destroyed eight MiGs, six by VF-96 in USS Constellation (CVA64). Three of the MiG-17s were downed by one VF-96 crew, LT. Randy "Duke" Cunningham and his RIO, LT(JG) Willie Driscoll, flying a Phantom F-4J, ShowTime 100. Combined with two earlier kills on 19 January and 8 May, the victories would make Cunningham and Driscoll the first American aces of the Vietnam War and the first to make all their kills with missiles.

When did the F4 enter service again? Early enough for them to be up to a J model before someone got 5 kills with one. I've seen the word "dominance" used before. Just never in this type of scenario.

[Hangtime]

Most of the stuff 'designed by committie' turns out pretty weak initially.. the 'ol Phantom when it was re-worked based on real combat exposure it turned out to be a competent airplane.

How the bird came to be an 'all service' airplane sucked... but by the time it was refined for the role it had to play it was a competent combat aircraft capable of 'head to head' dogfighting or (for the day) 'stand off' air to air operations with anything else in the air at the time.

My brother tells me (USS Hanconck, CV19, '68,69) that the pilots prefrerred to old F-8 Crusaders (last gunfighter) to the Phantoms for the pure Air to Air role.. Kinda like the way the Tomcat pilots really don't like the new Hornets in ATA roles. Won't be the first time the Navy's porked the biscuit by yanking a better plane for an inferior one.

[bunch]

Originally posted by Xjazz
I believe the Brewster model 239, the export model of the F2A-1, has the best kill ratio and also highest scoring single airframe.

As far as I've been able to find, the P-61 sustained no combat loses in any theater during the second world war, so that should make for quite a nice kill ratio, no?

[Mini D]

The F4 was a decent plane... don't get me wrong. But we're talking about the best 10 fighters. I just don't see how it belongs there.

[straffo]

I remember the Cunningham story .. btw didn't the F4 had lot of trouble with the Mig21MF ?

[Hangtime]

Yep.. the Mig21's were there.. 1966 on. 200 or so; they were the real contenders against the F4's. The majority of the air to air kills scored by the North were with Mig21's.



The MiG-21 was a very small, maneuverable aircraft that had a good record in combat against US pilots in Vietnam. But it was no world beater.

When Vietnam begain the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy were operating equipment and tactics devised for the Cold War. US pilots were clearly regarded to have superior technology and training. The technology part was generally true. The MiG-21 was superior to most of the Century Series Fighters employed by the USAF early in the war, but the MiG-19 and subsonic MiG-17 were not. None were better than the F-4 Phantom, or the short legged Navy F-8 Crusader in air to air combat.

What the MiG-21 along with the other Russian fighters had going for them is that it was small. That meant that all things being equal, the MiG would sight its targets first, and once spotted US pilots often assumed that it was farther away than it was, which led to tactical mistakes. Also, unlikely as it seems the MiG-21 looks very much like the F-4 from many angles, which made mixups possible. As there were more Phantoms in the sky at any one time than the MiG-21, it was often left alone until very late in the game.

But the real issues were tactical. In 1965 it was assumed that the air to air missile would prove dominant, so cannon were left off the Phantom fighters under the assumption they would be unnecessary. That assumption proved false, and the cannon was returned in the later F-4E variant of the Phantom. Also US pilots practiced aerial combat maneuvering (ACM) against other Americans, who were often in the same aircraft. If two adversaries are in the same aircraft pure pilot skill and early aircraft recognition willl usually determine the winner. But different aircraft have different flight characteristics. One may have the advantage of speed and climb, versus turn rate, and these advantages may reverse at different speeds and altitudes. Pilots fight as they are trained.

The average North Vietnamese pilot enjoyed a few distinct advantages over his American opponents. First MiG pilots were instructed to engage in combat only when they enjoyed a favorable position. Most US aircraft, including the fighters, were being used as bombers. Dropping your bombs early to engage an enemy was regarded as failure by the Americans, and a victory for North Vietnam. US aircraft were there to attack ground targets, and did not break off from difficult fights.

Second, there were so few North Vietnamese fighters that for most US pilots, an actual dogfight was very rare, which meant their peacetime training against similar aircraft prevailed That meant that North Vietnamese pilots who survived their early flights had extensive experience fighting US fighters, and thus their tactics were refined to a high level. But US pilots were trained to fight other Americans, and that gave them some bad habits that had to be unlearned. They were often surprised by the performance of their adversaries. They often misjudged distance and aircraft type.

This was addressed by the Ault Report prepared by the Navy which led directly to the Top Gun program that re-introduced dissimilar aircraft ACM training to the fleet. Before the introduction of Top Gun, Navy fighters killed 1.1 Vietnamese aircraft for each US fighter lost due to all causes. After Top Gun pilots filled the fleet, the kill ratio jumped to 13-1, which is above the Korean War ration of 10-1. The US Air Force learned similar lessons, and formed its Aggressor Squadrons to teach dissimilar ACM at such exercises as Red Flag. The combat effectiveness of US units leaped once such training was initiated.

The MiG-21 is a small, maneuverable daylight fighter that can be a deadly adversary in skilled hands. Particularly when it gets to fight on its terms. But the speed and climb rate of the F-4 Phantom gave it a distinct advantage when using the vertical, and its superior avionics multiplied those advantages when clouds filled the sky. Noders should also remember that North Vietnam's top pilot, Colonel Tomb, flew the older, subsonic MiG-17.

It is always hoped that your fighter pilots will shoot down far more aircraft than they lose. But air to air combat is not the point of an air campaign. One can enjoy a favorable kill ratio and still lose the air war. Victory goes to he who goes where he wants, does what he wants and keeps his enemy from doing the same.

kermitov has contributed an anecdote he heard from an American pilot who served in Vietnam. Because the MiG-21 was considered the toughest adversary, they were highly sought after. North Vietnam used to use them as bait, and once engage throw some MiG-17's into the party. The 17's would cover the faster MiG-21's escape, and their dissimilar characteristics would present problems for pilots whose mind was focused on the '21.

Not sure I quite agree with all of that.. but it's good enuff to point up the diffrences between the combat capabilty of the relative airframes and the way they were used.

[NUKE]

The F-4 was a pretty good plane and was produced up to 1985. It was the front-line fighter of more countries in the world than any other fighter, iic.

When it entered service in 1961, it was one of the best fighters in the world.

[Xjazz]

Originally posted by bunch
As far as I've been able to find, the P-61 sustained no combat loses in any theater during the second world war, so that should make for quite a nice kill ratio, no?

Do you have any links to the P-61 records? I can't find any good site. TY

[IK3]

The F-8 Crusader could have make F-4 Phantom's life a bit easier as an escort fighter.

Why did USN not deploy F-8s as an escort for F-4s loaded with bombs (lol)?

[Hangtime]

The F-8 was a 50's design, almost no avionics, single engine, no missiles initally. They were retro-fitted for sidewinders during the vietnam war, never carried the Sparrow. Deployed only on Essex Class carriers, (WWII holdovers like Hancock & Intrepid) there just wern't enuff of 'em available to 'escort' the F-4 'Bomb Truck' missions in a way you suggest beyon the occasional "Alpha Strike".

The last Fighter designed with only guns in mind, the pilots that flew 'em were absoluetly in love with it, and considered it a better fighter than the F-4 in any dogfight. The pilots called 'em the "Mig Masters".. rightfully so; the higest K/D ratio of any fighter in Vietnam was in fact the F-8 Crusader. Intended as a fleet defence weapon, it did mighty well 'feet dry' up in the north.