Originally posted by Kweassa
To provide a different view;
Since the turn rate/radius/efficiency between the 38s and the 84 is comparable, essentially a Ki-84 that latches on to a P-38 will be as hard to shake as a P-38 that latches on to a Ki-84. The Ki-84 holds the advantage in roll rate, speed, and acceleration.
The Ki-84 records 344mph at deck with a higher acceleration rate. IIRC, the P-38L does 344mph, and the P-38J around 348~350mph at deck. I'm not sure about the P-38G, but my guess is it'd be a lot slower than the P-38L.
So, at any rate, running away from a Ki-84 is not as easy as running away from a Spit - even in Ls and Js. (but ofcourse, same applies to the Ki; once lost its edge, it'd probably never get out of reach of the 38 guns) The speed difference between the 38s and the Ki-84 is minimal, although it increases with altitude. In a sense, they can be deemed as equal upto about 12~15k.
Like above two 38 experts mentioned, the largest drawback a Ki-84 holds is the speed ranges just before the flaps begin to pop out. It would take an experienced Ki-84 pilot to control his speed and dump E properly, to follow a P-38 that goes into an instantaneous turn. And since often, the Ki-84 meets bad stability issues just before combat flaps pop out, this range is most often where the P-38 can force a decisive advantage.
If this critical point is passed and a decisve edge is not gained for the 38, the Ki-84 will latch onto him and will not let go. However, if an edge is gained and the 38 is allowed to enter vertical loops before the Ki-84 loses enough speed to follow, it will become a problem.
Assuming equal pilots, I'd give;
7:3 odds in favor of the Ki-84 when vs a 38G
5:5 odds, when vs a 38J or L
Basically, it would come down to the situation, relative energy/alt status, and individual pilot skill. The Ki-84 and the P-38J/L are roughly equal match in almost every aspect.
A well flown Ki-84 is a tough fight for the P-38J. However, let's review a few things relating to performance.
Acceleration at Sea Level, Both planes at 50% fuel. Speed steady at 200 mph, accelerating to 300 mph.
Ki-84 requires 35.96 seconds
P-38J requires 36.47 seconds
This is virtually a wash. Slight edge to Ki-84, not enough to save your bacon.
Climb from sea level to 10,000 feet. Speed steady at 300 mph, engage auto-climb and WEP. Recorded time to reach 10k.
Ki-84: 2:04.09
P-38J: 2:03.55
Again, too close to make a difference. Slight edge to P-38J, but not enough to change circumstances either way.
Max speed at sea level.
Ki-84: 344 mph
P-38J: 344 mph
Once again, no difference. Well, almost. The P-38J can sustain that speed better due to the Ki-84s short WEP cycle, which causes a drop while the engine cools. However, that is not usually significant.
Where the Ki-84 falls behind is in speed as altitude increases. At 20,000 feet, the P-38J holds a substantial edge in speed, accelration and climb.
In point of fact, very few fighters accelerate as well as the P-38J at 20k. Again, measuring from 200 mph to 300 mph; the Ki-84 requires almost 12 seconds longer than the P-38J. That is no small difference. Climb rate for the Hayate at 20k is 30% less than the P-38J. Maximum speed is a bit lopsided as well with the P-38J pulling 405 mph to the Ki-84's 384 mph. Adding to that difference is the fact that the P-38 accelerates much faster, so it attains a higher speed much sooner. In simple terms, the P-38J just checks out.
Both aircraft have issues at high speeds. However, the Ki-84's problems are more severe. You can dive a P-38J to 590+ mph and not worry about breaking it. I've tested the P-38J in dives from as high as 40k. I saw Mach .84 on E6B at 28k, and pulled out with trim at 5k incurring no damage. In contrast, the Ki-84 is scattered all over the arena should you get within 100 mph of the P-38's speed. Both experience control lock-up, but for differing reasons. Nonetheless, the result is the same. That is until you G load them. You won't break the Lightning, but the Hayate will become a flying parts bin should you pull out with too much trim.
So, down on the deck you have two aircraft with very similar acceleration, climb and speed. Unfortunately for the Ki-84, as you go higher the P-38J gains the advantage, until at 20k, it is markedly superior.
As previously described, in a turn fight the Ki-84 is at a disadvantage until speeds drop below 170 mph where it can begin deployment of flaps. At 155 mph, it can get full flaps. Where it suffers most is between 250 and 170 mph, where the P-38J can carry at least 3 notches of flaps. That being the case, the Ki-84 either must bleed E very quickly or otherwise avoid a turn fight until flaps can be deployed.
Let me comment on the P-38G. While it is slower below 14k and accelerates slower and offers only average climb rate, do not underestimate it. It holds E like crazy and zoom climbs likewise. It turns better than the J and L models at low to medium speeds.
I have battled REN's Ki-84 and we were both shocked to see the P-38G chase down his Co-E Hayate in a straight vertical climb. That's the benefit of weight, translated into a remarkable zoom climb. The P-38G closed from 600 yards to 200 yards, where the Ki-84 stalled. I flew right on by, flipped over and was in perfect position. If you are careful to manage your E, the P-38G can give the Ki-84 all it can stand. Managing your E means managing your flaps. Use them only when you need them, as the P-38G doesn't have the acceleration to replace E as readily as the J and L models.
My regards,
Widewing
