Author Topic: Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind  (Read 2720 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #120 on: June 08, 2005, 11:34:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
We arent talking about what you or I give to charity.

We are talking about our (governments) responsibilities to its citizens.


And like I said, "We see things differently"


I love compassionate conservatives:) Wish I could find one:)


So, find me the article in the Constitution that says the FEDERAL government is charged with WELFARE, SOCIAL SECURITY, PUBLIC HOUSING, EDUCATION.

When the FEDERAL government FORCES people to subsudize those things that you THINK are part of the government's responsibilities, that is stealing.

The original intent of the FEDERAL government was to promote and regulate interstate commerce, and provide for the common defense. NOTHING in the original documents makes the government responsible for widows, orphans, slackers, the homeless, education, retirement, subsidized medical care, or any of the rest of the crap you want to add.

The BIG problem is the more clowns try to add to the list, the worse the results are. More money is wasted, and less is done. Then they keep coming back for more and more money. That money does not belong to the government, nor is the government charged with dispensing it to those that are supposedly deserving of it. It wasn't in the Constitution, and it was never intended to be. The more these self annointed conscience bearers try to pile on, the farther we'll get from the original intent, and the more screwed up it will be.

B.S. selective moderation is a joke.
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Offline Silat

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #121 on: June 09, 2005, 12:29:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
So, find me the article in the Constitution that says the FEDERAL government is charged with WELFARE, SOCIAL SECURITY, PUBLIC HOUSING, EDUCATION.

When the FEDERAL government FORCES people to subsudize those things that you THINK are part of the government's responsibilities, that is stealing.

The original intent of the FEDERAL government was to promote and regulate interstate commerce, and provide for the common defense. NOTHING in the original documents makes the government responsible for widows, orphans, slackers, the homeless, education, retirement, subsidized medical care, or any of the rest of the crap you want to add.

The BIG problem is the more clowns try to add to the list, the worse the results are. More money is wasted, and less is done. Then they keep coming back for more and more money. That money does not belong to the government, nor is the government charged with dispensing it to those that are supposedly deserving of it. It wasn't in the Constitution, and it was never intended to be. The more these self annointed conscience bearers try to pile on, the farther we'll get from the original intent, and the more screwed up it will be.

B.S. selective moderation is a joke.


I love clowns.
We disagree.
Show me where the constitution says your way is correct.
+Silat
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"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Silat

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« Reply #122 on: June 09, 2005, 12:42:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
Take the amount of money you paid in taxes and multiply it by the % of the budget (2.9%) which is for the Department of education and you will see you are getting a good deal.  

Its $580 dollars for 20k in taxes and thats for 1 student. Got more than 1 kid, start dividing it up.


Raidr good point. But it falls on deaf ears. :(
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Steve

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #123 on: June 09, 2005, 01:00:34 AM »
Quote
Im fortunate in my life and have benefited greatly from Bush's caring of the rich.



Bush's caring  for who? huh?   Lies... propaganda BS.  I'm calling you out.  Just how did Bush care for the rich more than the poor?
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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #124 on: June 09, 2005, 01:16:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Bush's caring  for who? huh?   Lies... propaganda BS.  I'm calling you out.  Just how did Bush care for the rich more than the poor?



The taxpayers who get no or reduced benefits from the tax bill are concentrated in the bottom three-fifths of income earners. Sixty-two percent of the three-fifths of all taxpayers who make less than $44,000 a year will get less than the full rebate amounts, with 42 percent of these taxpayers getting nothing at all.

The tax rebates are supposed to reflect the tax savings from the new 10 percent income-tax bracket on the first $12,000 in taxable income for couples, $10,000 for single parents, and $6,000 for others. Payroll taxes, which are the largest federal tax for three out of four taxpayers, are not counted in computing the rebates.

Oddly, although most taxpayers in the bottom 60 percent of the income scale will get reduced or zero rebates, the tax bill extends the benefits of the rebate to about two million upper-income taxpayers who will not actually benefit from the new 10 percent rate bracket, due to the Alternative Minimum Tax.

"Like the rest of the Bush tax plan, the rebates have been carefully designed to give as little as possible to those who need the money, and as much as possible to those who don't," said Robert S. McIntyre, director of Citizens for Tax Justice.


http://www.ctj.org/html/rebate01.htm

Offline Steve

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« Reply #125 on: June 09, 2005, 01:21:04 AM »
Quote
with 42 percent of these taxpayers getting nothing at all.


My point is:  Bush's plans benefits tax payers.


I bet those 42% pay no taxes in the first place.
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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #126 on: June 09, 2005, 01:38:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
My point is:  Bush's plans benefits tax payers.


I bet those 42% pay no taxes in the first place.


lol It says 42% of TAXPAYERS lol ;)

Offline Steve

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #127 on: June 09, 2005, 01:39:43 AM »
Yes, I think my version of tax payer and theirs is different.  I define a tax payer as someone who actually pays taxes. (net)
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Offline lazs2

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #128 on: June 09, 2005, 08:52:03 AM »
raider... you are being shortsighted... I pay that 580 a year all my working life... not just while my children are of school age... some people pay it and never have any children.  

That is not the point tho... if, as silat and you say... we need to fund education... then It matters not how it is done so long as we get good results for the money... Private schools are not normally "capitalism" vs "socialism" at all.   they are simply choice.

silat.. I would love to spend time at a meal with you shouting you down (my normal converstional voice)....We don't seem to be getting eachn other in print... the road tax thing for instance... I am not saying turn all the money over to a private company (although I would not be oppossed)  I am saying simply that there is no need for more money no matter who maintains the roads.... we have plenty if we weren't being robbed by the socialists.  

my point is that you could charge the rich 10 times more and say it was to make better roads and not a cent of it would make it ot any road in the country.

You are aware that most public road maintenance is done now by private contractors (at least in Ca.)?

I do not believe that corprate welfare is "welfare" at least not as I understand welfare.   Anyone who has stock or a bank account or even anyone who lives here is the benificiary of "corprate welfare".    Corporations are not people.

I am sorry but when I hear phrases like "corporate welfare" or "pay their fair share" or "seperation of church and state" even...

I tend to figure that I am talking to someone who doesn't really think past the soundbite.

lazs

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #129 on: June 09, 2005, 09:18:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
I love clowns.
We disagree.
Show me where the constitution says your way is correct.


Doesn't work that way. The Constitution does not provide for the things you want to do. As such, the Federal government is not charged with performing and subsidizing those tasks. You are not entitled to chose for the rest of us what we should fund, and how much we should be FORCED to spend funding it. You may fund whatever you want as an individual.

Funny, you want it both ways. You DEMAND that the government not "interfere" with personal choices,  but then you DEMAND that the government take care of personal responsibilities. You want the government to strong arm money from others and spend it on things you want it spent on, regardless of whether or not it is Constitutional. You claim the Constitution is supposed to "protect" you from that which you desire to be "protected" from, and you claim the Constitution allows you to take money that does NOT belong to you and spend it on what you want it spent on.

I think you need to take a course on reading and comprehension, and then take a closer look at the Constitution. And read the history that surrounds the document and its authors. Maybe then you'll understand the intent of those men far wiser than you. The Constitution is NOT a "living document", malleable in the hands of those who wish to interpret it as they desire and to suit their wishes. It was NEVER intended to be such.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Here is what this is ALL about
« Reply #130 on: June 09, 2005, 09:29:47 AM »
Taken from: "Liberals and Class, Parts I and II",
by Thomas Sowell"





The new trinity among liberal intellectuals is race, class and gender. Defining any of these terms is not easy, but it is also not difficult for liberals, because they seldom bother to define them at all.

 The oldest, and perhaps still the most compelling, of these concerns is class. In the vision of the left, we are born, live, and die in a particular class -- unless, of course, we give power to the left to change all that.
 
The latest statistics seized upon to support this class-ridden view of America and other Western societies show that most people in a given part of the income distribution are the children of other people born into that same part of the income distribution.

 Among men born in families in the bottom 25 percent of income earners only 32 percent end up in the top half of the income distribution. And among men born to families in the top 25 percent in income earners, only 34 percent end up down in the bottom half.

 How startling is that?

 More to the point, does this show that people are trapped in poverty or can coast through life on their parents' wealth? Does it show that "society" denies "access" to the poor?

 Could it just possibly show that the kind of values and behavior which lead a family to succeed or fail are also likely to be passed on to their children and lead them to succeed or fail as well? If so, how much can government policy -- liberal or conservative -- change that in any fundamental way?

 One recent story attempting to show that upward mobility is a "myth" in America today nevertheless noted in passing that many recent immigrants and their children have had "extraordinary upward mobility."

 If this is a class-ridden society denying "access" to upward mobility to those at the bottom, why is it that immigrants can come here at the bottom and then rise to the top?

 One obvious reason is that many poor immigrants come here with very different ambitions and values from that of poor Americans born into our welfare state and imbued with notions growing out of attitudes of dependency and resentments of other people's success.

 The fundamental reason that many people do not rise is not that class barriers prevent it but that they do not develop the skills, values and attitudes which cause people to rise.

 The liberal welfare state means they don't have to and liberal multiculturalism says they don't need to change their values because one culture is just as good as another. In other words, liberalism is not part of the solution, but part of the problem.

 Racism is supposed to put insuperable barriers in the path of non-whites anyway, so why knock yourself out trying?  This is another deadly message, especially for the young.

 But if immigrants from Korea or India, Vietnamese refugees, and others can come here and move right on up the ladder, despite not being white, why are black and white Americans at the bottom more likely to stay at the bottom?

 The same counterproductive and self-destructive attitudes toward education, work and ordinary civility found in many of America's ghettos can also be found in lower-class British communities. Anyone who doubts it should read British doctor Theodore Dalrymple's book "Life at the Bottom," about the white lower class communities in which he has worked.

 These chaotic and violence-prone communities in Britain do not have the excuse of racism or a legacy of slavery. What they do have in common with similar communities in the United States is a similar reliance on the welfare state and a similar set of intellectuals making excuses for their behavior and denouncing anyone who wants them to change their ways.

 The latest round of statistics emboldens more intellectuals to blame "society" for the failure of many people at the bottom to rise to the top. Realistically, if nearly a third of people born to families in the bottom quarter of income earners rise into the top half, that is not a bad record.

 If more were doing so in the past, that does not necessarily mean that "society" is holding them down more today. It may easily mean that the welfare state and liberal ideology both make it less necessary today for them to change their own behavior.

Someone once defined a social problem as a situation in which the real world differs from the theories of intellectuals. To the intelligentsia, it follows, as the night follows the day, that it is the real world that is wrong and which needs to change.

 Having imagined a world in which each individual has the same probability of success as anyone else, intellectuals have been shocked and outraged that the real world is nowhere close to that ideal. Vast amounts of time and resources have been devoted to trying to figure out what is stopping this ideal from being realized -- as if there was ever any reason to expect it to be.

 Despite all the words and numbers thrown around when discussing this situation, the terms used are so sloppy that it is hard even to know what the issues are, much less how to resolve them.

 Back in mid-May, both the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal had front-page stories about class differences and class mobility. The Times' article was the first in a long series that is still going on a month later. Both papers reached similar conclusions, based on a similar sloppy use of the word "mobility."

 The Times referred to "the chance of moving up from one class to another" and the Wall Street Journal referred to "the odds that a child born in poverty will climb to wealth." But the odds or probabilities against something happening are no measure of whether opportunity exists.

 Anyone who saw me play basketball and saw Michael Jordan play basketball when we were youngsters would have given odds of a zillion to one that he was more likely to make the NBA than I was. Does that mean I was denied opportunity or access, that there were barriers put up against me, that the playing field was not level?

 Or did it mean that Michael Jordan -- and virtually everyone else -- played basketball a lot better than I did?

 A huge literature on social mobility often pays little or no attention to the fact that different individuals and groups have different skills, desires, attitudes and numerous other factors, including luck. If mobility is defined as being free to move, then we can all have the same mobility, even if some end up moving faster than others and some of the others do not move at all.

 A car capable of going 100 miles an hour can sit in a garage all year long without moving. But that does not mean that it has no mobility.

 When each individual and each group trails the long shadow of their cultural history, they are unlikely even to want to do the same things, much less be willing to put out the same efforts and make the same sacrifices to achieve the same goals. Many are like the car that is sitting still in the garage, even though it is capable of going 100 mph.

 So long as each generation raises its own children, people from different backgrounds are going to be raised with different values and habits. Even in a world with zero barriers to upward mobility, they would move at different speeds and in different directions.

 If there is less upward movement today than in the past, that is by no means proof that external barriers are responsible. The welfare state and multiculturalism both reduce the incentives of the poor to adopt new ways of life that would help them rise up the economic ladder. The last thing the poor need is another dose of such counterproductive liberal medicine.

 Many comparisons of "classes" are in fact comparisons of people in different income brackets -- but most Americans move up from the lowest 20 percent to the highest 20 percent over time.

 Yet those who are obsessed with classes treat people in different brackets as if they were classes permanently stuck in those brackets.

 The New York Times series even makes a big deal about disparities in income and lifestyle between the rich and the super-rich. But it is hard to get worked up over the fact that some poor devil has to make do flying his old propeller-driven plane, while someone further up the income scale flies around a mile or two higher in his twin-engine luxury jet.

 Only if you have overdosed on disparities are you likely to wax indignant over things like that.



That explains EVERYTHING about this discussion. It is ALL about redistribution of wealth, and justifying it with contrived class warfare, trumped up by those with an agenda.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline JB88

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #131 on: June 09, 2005, 10:04:14 AM »
theoretically, inheritance is, and will continue to be  one of the greatest contributors to the problem of class.

the idea that one person should hold sway or a higher status as a human being over another due to a sperm lottery is the last vestige of an archaic monarchical system and draws against the very nature of democracy.
this thread is doomed.
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word.

Offline Krusher

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Re: Here is what this is ALL about
« Reply #132 on: June 09, 2005, 10:15:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts

That explains EVERYTHING about this discussion. It is ALL about redistribution of wealth, and justifying it with contrived class warfare, trumped up by those with an agenda.



pretty much

Offline Airhead

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #133 on: June 09, 2005, 10:28:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
theoretically, inheritance is, and will continue to be  one of the greatest contributors to the problem of class.

the idea that one person should hold sway or a higher status as a human being over another due to a sperm lottery is the last vestige of an archaic monarchical system and draws against the very nature of democracy.



The idea that one person can pull themselves out of dire economic straights and achieve, through hard work and sacrifice, a superior way of life that can be passed on to thier children is the very nature of democracy.

You should move to the Peoples' Republic of Mendocino County, JB88. The primary industry is attracting and caring for indignents, from food to halfway houses to Methadone, with teams of activists recruiting homeless off the freeway onramps and convincing them we have the social services in place that'll make Ukiah a great place to live and be a vagrant in.  

We don't keep score at youth sporting events, the kids don't have numbers on thier shirts, and if a kid scores two goals in a soccer game or hits a couple of home runs then he's benched lest he stick out and make his teammates feel inferior.

You would like it here JB88...no individulism allowed, kinda like a virtual Squad that requires you to give up your old handle and adopt a number.

Offline JB88

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #134 on: June 09, 2005, 10:38:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
The idea that one person can pull themselves out of dire economic straights and achieve, through hard work and sacrifice, a superior way of life that can be passed on to thier children is the very nature of democracy.

You should move to the Peoples' Republic of Mendocino County, JB88. The primary industry is attracting and caring for indignents, from food to halfway houses to Methadone, with teams of activists recruiting homeless off the freeway onramps and convincing them we have the social services in place that'll make Ukiah a great place to live and be a vagrant in.  

We don't keep score at youth sporting events, the kids don't have numbers on thier shirts, and if a kid scores two goals in a soccer game or hits a couple of home runs then he's benched lest he stick out and make his teammates feel inferior.

You would like it here JB88...no individulism allowed, kinda like a virtual Squad that requires you to give up your old handle and adopt a number.


wow.  

a.  i did not say that we should get rid of it.  (i am not FOR giving it to government either)

b.  born priveledge is not hard work.  not even remotely.

c.  i believe that inheritance actually discourages work.

so that said, reread my post and tell me where i said we should go welfare state.

to me, it is a socialogical issue.

i think that we will reach a time when society begins to look at ways to level the playing field rather than unequally leveling players.

then we will see some real capitalism baby.

oh, and do some homework.  the JB squad never asks you to change your handle or go to a number.  

we do it because we feel honored to be a part of a brotherhood.  i made that choice and i am proud to have done so.

i dont need to be "mrwickawacka" to have fun.

you might fly with us sometime.  its actually quite diverse and spirited.  its hard to think of any other squad that would encourage me to be as individualistic as i am.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 10:41:13 AM by JB88 »
this thread is doomed.
www.augustbach.com  

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.