good way to get people to fly...

[mrfish]

make sure they have a 6-8 hour delay every time they fly!

one stinking metal detector was unplugged in seattle and some of those unscreened people went on to oakland. because of this they evacuated the entire oakland airport, thousands of people and made everyone go back thru the screening.

they are watching these families go back thru the screening they have to know they arent terrorists - come on - they are sitting there pretending like 'it could be anyone'. it isnt - they are neutered and long gone i say.

what happened on sep 11th was a fluke. i seriously doubt they even have any operatives left and if they did that old trick will never work again anyway. they were really 'lucky' to get away with it and actually cause so much damage.  

we are way over-estimating these half assed terrorists and they have us quivering. on top of that we cant get our sh&t together enough to plug in the damn metal detector. werent they clued in when it didnt go off for an hour? those things always go off.

ridiculous - im not flying anywhere til they get it together. the last thing i am worried about is stupid terrorists - they got nothing left, they are done for, all they had was box cutters in the first place that will never work again...its the incompetence and overreaction that will keep me away.

[GRUNHERZ]

I think the "security" people who monkeyed (not deserving of "manned") that detector should be fired, as in shot at and killed. How stupid are they? I bet they cant even read.  

What amazinhunks, I hope they get punished severly, then deported.

[1776]

Now that the security people are Federal employees, just try and fire one!!  If it happens let me know.  I will demand evidence that it really happened!!

You must understand that Federal employee equals professional,ya, right heheeeeeeeee

[J_A_B]

As retarded as the debacle in Seattle/Okland was, I wouldn't call these terrorists "half-assed".

Half-assed terrorists don't kill 5000+ people.  Half-assed terrorists deface property and butcher someone's pet dog and beat up helpless elderly people.  Half-assed terrorists don't take flying lessons, don't willingly blow themselves up, and don't have worldwide organization.

5000+ people.   Real people, real lives.  Not just some meaningless number.  That's Pearl harbor times 2, and done against civilians!  

That simply doesn't qualify as "half-assed" in my book.

J_A_B

[ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: J_A_B ]

[mrfish]

oh brother...wondered who'd be the first to go for the sentimental angle....throwing the 5000 lives around doesnt prove they are any good as an organization. all it does is make a needlessly dramatic statement.

all their success proves is that they took a cheap shot and got away with it. they wouldnt have even got that many if the bldgs hadnt collapsed. talk about tragic breaks for us and incredible luck for them! its not like they knew the bldgs would collapse. they got really lucky, the damage shouldnt have been anywhere NEAR as bad as it was.

everyone thinks hijackings will go fine as long as they cooperate. this one didnt. that trick works once and ONLY once. they werent some uber commandos - anyone with 2 days on msfs2000 could have pulled off that trick.

i wouldnt give too much credit to the terrorists -

they couldnt do it again. their country is getting decimated. they couldnt even do anything comparable - they arent organized enough or ingenious enough. what else do they have? nothing, thats what. one trick one jab and thats it.

what else have they done? some truck bombs some boat bomb? hell if we'd been awake we could have easily stopped those too. we might have even been able to stop more useless death but i guess the body count has to reach a certain point before we get serious.

i for one am not going to sit around quivering about them. im getting a little sick of the extra measures on people who obviously arent terrorists.

i see some family from the midwest with some kids getting shook down and think man what a waste of their day. if anything the terrorists are winning by irritating us to death.

they got one good shot at us but thats all they got they cant even defend themselves at their own homes.

[moose]

i think most all americans would rather be safe then sorry.

[Raubvogel]

While I do like the idea of extra security, I also think we need to be smart about it. I can appreciate what mrfish is saying. Everyday I drive onto a military installation in a military uniform with a military registration sticker on my car, looking Caucasian as hell, and about 25% of the time I get my car gets thoroughly searched. Some common sense needs to prevail. I think alot of it has to do with the "racial profiling" phobia. No one wants to be accused of singling out Arabic people for searches. I think thats a bunch of crap...but I'm not in charge  

[Sandman]

Originally posted by moose:
i think most all americans would rather be safe then sorry.

One day we'll all be completely safe.

We just won't be free anymore.

[J_A_B]

"i for one am not going to sit around quivering about them. "

Neither am I.   But I'm also not going to believe delusions suggesting that these guys are "half-assed".

You need to remember that these guys aren't your average "let's spray paint swastikas on the side of a church then beat up some little kid" terrorists.   There are people who've dedicated their lives to killing each and every last one of us.  They search out and find what we're not protecting, then do as much damage as they can.  Calling them "half-assed" is silly.  

Yeah, bombing the WTC in 1993 was "half-assed".
Bombing two different U.S. embassies on the same day was "half-assed".
Almost sinking a USN destroyer was "half-assed".
Destroying a pair of skyscrapers in downtown New York was "half-assed".
Anthrax mailings are "half-assed".

If all that is indeed "half-assed", then what constitutes "serious" terrorism?

Unless you treat them as a threat, it WILL happen again.  To maintain the shock value, be sure they will make it more spectacular too (read:  more lethal).

J_A_B

[SOB]

SOB:  I'll take Mr. Fish for 100, Alex.
Alex:  <reads above posts by El Fishy>
SOB:  What happens when Mr. Fish's dealer is out of town and he sees something retarded on the news?
Alex:  Correct!  Select again.
SOB:  I'll take The Penis Mightier for 200!

[mrfish]

half assed as in not complicated or unstoppable. half assed as in stringing together cheap and uncomplicated attacks. half assed as in we ought to be able to stop this at the intelligence level. our lapses have helped them more than thier proficiency.

anyone with 'bomb fixins' can walk up to an embassy and blow themselves to bits.

its not complicated to hijack a plane and crash it just walk up to someone with your box cutter - give them your demands and crash the plane before they realize whats up.

blow up a boat? strap bomb to body - get in boat - drive boat to ship - watch soldier leaning on 50cal and watching you without firing...press button

they arent hiding under our beds they just had some suicidal maniacs and used them thats not very complicated. and ps the anthrax hasnt been proven to be linked to this so lets exclude it.

ill give them a bit more credit for complexity if it is them but still at that theyve only got a few people.... they could have dumped it in a crowded subway or a football game and got many people instead of going for the political statement. not very adept.

the times theyve gotten over on us could have been easily stopped with better intelligence and foresight as well as doing more than launching a few meaningless cruise missiles at em.

i think we are waaaay too impressed at how they coordinate things - i keep hearing that: "oh but their coordination oohhh ahhh that coordination had to take years of rocket scientists calculating on cray computers...ohhh ahhh"

my lord man! how hard is it to read a friggin route schedule or say 'hey blow yourself up at 4 oclock and i will too'?! if that impresses you then you were maybe bad at word probs  

all i'm saying is that they are only powerful when we arent paying attention - there's no need to shake down 10,000 people just trying to get to grandmas house everytime some dolt who couldnt get a real job gets scared at his metal detector.

are the terrorists goig to be at the airport with guns? no they wouldnt even try it'd be a waste of resources because theyd likely get caught, they wouldnt try the boxcutter thing again because they know itd only work once - they arent going to hijack anything. why?

because they're too half assed thats why.

[mrfish]

lol sob!!! you know me too well - i'll give it up, i just think we are overreacting and i dont want to make these guys(terrorists) more than what they are which is lucky one- time mosquitos that are shoulda quit buzzin a long time ago when they had the chance.

[Toad]

As much as I hate to return this thread to its original topic, I think Fish has a point.

The airlines are screwing up by the numbers.

Yes, total traffic is down.

Security, with attendant ID checks, baggage checks and changes, scanning changes, etc., etc., etc. has made the process of getting your ticket and checking you bags MUCH more labor intensive on the airline side of the equation.

The brilliant response of the Harvard biz school grads is to CUT the number of people by 20-25% that actually do the work of checking you in, checking your bags and getting the flight out of the gate.

The result is that now at a large "hub" airport you get to the airport at least 2 hours before your flight (maybe even 3), expect to be delayed, because the new system is delaying almost everything, finally get airborne, fly to the destination and then wait one hour to get your bag because the cut ramp personnel 20% as well.

So who the heck wants to spend all bloody day trying to get somewhere by air?

It's getting more and more attractive to DRIVE to any destination that can be reached in the 5-7 hour range.

That's a direct hit right in the highly profitable "regional jet" breadbasket. The whiz kids ordered hundreds of those... and now they're driving folks away from the RJ's main market.

Additionally, medium-haul standard jet traffic is taking a hit as well.

What needs to be done is to streamline the process as much as possible and USE ENOUGH EMPLOYEES TO KEEP THE LINES SHORT!

As for unplugging the metal detector.. I can see the new "terrorists" now.

"Akeem, your job is to carefully trip over the power cord and unplug it without them noticing. We have 25 trained commandos who will do the same thing around the country at 12 noon sharp! If they catch you, apologize and go on your way."

Shut down the whole system instantly. It'd take them 2 days to get everything back on track.

This is the kind of stuff they better get off their dead rear ends and fix before there IS no airline industry.

Me, I'm going to open a bar.. and the video games are gonna be those WW2 fighter cock
pit mockups running AH.  

I think I WILL call it the "Auger Inn".

[SOB]

One thing that suprised me greatly was that my own style of airline travel didn't seem to be affected at all.  Aside from my original itinerary being eliminated and me being booked on a different flights, it all went smoothly.

As usual, all I took was a single carry on and I checked in at the gate instead of the ticket counter.  Was I just lucky?


SOB

PS...I agree Fishy, at some point it just gets rediculous!

[miko2d]

To the "better safe then sorry proponents":

 Fish is not talking about discarding the safety measures. He is talking about the safety measures actually increasing our feeling of unsafety.

 Where do you feel safer? In a competently-run quiet by-the-book operation where everything is happening according to schedule?
 Or in a mad rush of changing plans, people running around, things changing by the minute and delayed by hours?

 No one would get nervous if he knows in advance that the new security measures take 3 hours or 5 hours and include the full body+cavity search - as long as it is planned, occures in time and the plane leaves on schedule.

 It is the freaking new things every day and the huge delays and knee-jerk reactions that make passengers doubt the airline competence. For G-d's sake, they are the one establishing the schedules - do not schedule so many flights if you  cannot service them.
 People who waited for extra 8 hours will rightfully doubt everything else the airline does - including flying and maintaining the planes.
 Anyone who ever flew to Israel knows that El-Al and other airlines had comprehencive security routine working flawlessly for years - without complications.

 As for half-assed terrorists, they did not need to be any better because our own anti-terrorist efforts can hardly be called even half-assed.

 Terrorists killed only few people directly - a few hundreds at most. As Fish said, the building collapse and our loss was an accident and incompetence of our emergency services (who should have known what the result of the fire would have been).
 The economical loss we cause ourself now is greater then the one caused by terrorists directly, so the gross incompetence and overreaction mrFish is referring to can be rightfully called contunuation of the terrorists efforts.

 miko

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]