100/150 fuel useage

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Hmm, it appears Kev was right - that`s 11 Sqn with ADGB, 26 with 2nd TAF, total 37, if my count is right. Not much, about 440 operational aircraft flying missions.

It also appears that my previous assessment based on the indirect evidences available about the relatively small numbers of MkIXs in service was correct. A year before, in July 1943, there were only 10 Sqns of them in service.. plus those two XII sqns. still the Mk V was dominant, being four times as widespread.

However, some units may be in MTO that also used the Mark IX at that period, so 50 may be right for the total number sqns - or not.  afaik, and again, according to indirect evidence, there were even less MkIXs there than in the more important western european theatre.

Flying those SpitVs must have been scary in 1944 - and there were quite a few around, even in 1945.

Actually 37 given the R.A.F. average of 20 for an operational squadron (their figures, not mine) equals 740, not 440 aircraft.

Far East squadrons apart from one all used Spit L.F. VIII's
All Mk XVI were deliverd as L.F.'s.

[Scherf]

Chris Shores "2nd TAF, Volume 1: Spartan to Normandy" says 134 Wing was made up of 3 squadrons of Spitfire IXs, 310,312 and 313.

It also says 402 Sqn was on Mosquitos, however this is incorrect.

It further gives 501 and 345 Squadrons on Spit IXs.

The "B" in the Fighter Command War Diaries is where it gives a squadron as being on Spitfire IXBs. Don't ask me, but that's what it says.

[Kev367th]

IXB is easy to explain.

Originally the 'c' wing for the IX was 4x20mms.
The 'improved b' wing - 2x20 + 4x303 + bomb load became known as the 'c' wing.
Although IXB is strictly correct, even most kit manufacturers list them as IXC's.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kev367th
IXB is easy to explain.

Originally the 'c' wing for the IX was 4x20mms.
The 'improved b' wing - 2x20 + 4x303 + bomb load became known as the 'c' wing.
Although IXB is strictly correct, even most kit manufacturers list them as IXC's.

The IXB was the unofficial designation for the LFIX.

You'll see pilot quotes talking about getting on IXBs.  This was in reference to the arrival of the LFIX and it's popularity with the pilots.

We had a long debate about this on the Flypast forum.  It was good fun and we came to the conclusion there never was an IXC

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=20000

Dan/CorkyJr

[Squire]

ORBAT for RAFs 2nd TAF for June 1944 was as follows

88 Medium Bombers (67 Operational)
160 Light Bombers (146 Operational)
1006 Fighters (856 Operational)

1254 a/c of which 1069 were ops ready.

Source "Overlord" page 411.

The Squadron breakdowns I wont bother repeating. The #s do not include any a/c from Fighter Command (ADGB), Bomber Command or Coastal Command based in G.B.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually 37 given the R.A.F. average of 20 for an operational squadron (their figures, not mine) equals 740, not 440 aircraft.

Hmm, the established strenght was indeed 20 a/c issued per squadron, however 8 out of the 20 were reserve aircraft and did not fly missions, just the remaining 12. So while the present strenght was probably close to 700 (given the low intensity operations of the two units), the actual number of a/c that were ready to fly operations was probably 440-odd.

I doubt the 'typical' 20/sqn aircraft anyway, in no air force would it be possible to keep the strenght 100% all the time, losses were constant and took a bit delay to replace. The book 'Operation Bodenplatte' gives figures for the 2TAF`s Typhoon sqns in late 1944, at one time they had 17-18 or even 20 a/c sqn present, but just before december the number of operational a/c sank to only 1 to 3 per squadrons. Surely they were replaced, but it shows the 20 ac/sqn figure is rather theoretical.

I am not sure if anybody else issued so many reserves available to such small sized units as a squadron; it`s a rather ineffiecient way to use the available a/c, but it made sense in the RAF, tasked primarly to defend the british isles and as it was organised with sector defense system. So many reserves would mean that even with heavy losses, the units could hold their fighting power of 12 a/c well for sustained time.
 

Far East squadrons apart from one all used Spit L.F. VIII's
All Mk XVI were deliverd as L.F.'s. [/B]

Do you know details about the MTO units?

[Guppy35]

Order of Battle for 2 TAF on June 5, 1944 listed in John Foremans book "1944 over the Beaches"

The Fighter Squadrons included:

26 Spitfire Squadrons, all but one being Spit IXs.  The other was an XIV Squadron.

16 Typhoon Squadrons

2 Tempest Squadrons

6 Mustang III Squadrons

6 Mossie Squadrons

ADGB Squadrons had an additional 26 Spitfire Squadrons.  10 were Spitfire IX, 2 were VII,  1 XII and 1 XIV.  10 Were Spitfire V

The Spit IX was clearly the dominant RAF fighter in numbers at this point.

There were no Spit Vs operating on the continent as the remaining squadrons were transitioning to IXs and XVIs within the next couple months in England.

There were Spit Vs flying over the beaches on D-Day.  I've seen photos of 501 Spit Vbs in D-Day stripes and in flight that day.

There were also Seafires flying as spotters for the big guns of the RN as well.

I believe the latest operational combat Spit Vs were those of 2 SAAF flying those ground attack 4 cannon Spit Vc trops in the MTO in late 44.

Dan/CorkyJr

[Kurfürst]

To summerize, total 37 sqns of IXs in the RAF, 25 being 2ndTAF, 10 ADGB.

That leaves 2 unaccounted - MTO?

I wonder about the rate of changeover between July 1943 (10 IX sqns) and June 1944 (37 sqns).

[Guppy35]

Order of Battle for the Mediterranean Air Command as of July 10, 1943 lists 35 Spitfire Squadrons.

Of those listed, and it includes 6 American flown Spitfire Squadrons, 24 of them flew either IXs or VIIIs at some point.  That includes the USAAF 31st FG that flew Vs, then IXs and then VIIIs. 52nd FG USAAF had IXs.  1435 Squadron on Malta had Spit IXs.  92 Squadron flew Vs, IXs and VIIIs.  417 flew Vs then VIIIs.  145 flew Vs then VIIIs.  601 had Vs then IXs and VIIIs.  43 had VIIIs, 72 had IXs, 93, 111, 243, 81, 154, 232, 242 had IXs or VIIIs.  73 had IXs.  225 had Vs then IXs.  253 had clipped wing VIIIs.  4 Squadron SAAF had IXs

First IXs in the MTO were 81 Squadron in January 1943.  72 Squadron and 145 Squadron followed shortly afterwards.  Both the USAAF 31st and 52nd FG's got IXs in April 43.

145 Squadron got the first VIIIs in June of 43.

Dan/CorkyJr

[Guppy35]

I was going to type just those Spit IX squadrons operating in 43 as there seems to be more then the 10 you mention.  Instead I scanned the list of IX/XVI Squadrons with dates of service.

Have fun

Dan/CorkyJr

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Hmm, the established strenght was indeed 20 a/c issued per squadron, however 8 out of the 20 were reserve aircraft and did not fly missions, just the remaining 12. So while the present strenght was probably close to 700 (given the low intensity operations of the two units), the actual number of a/c that were ready to fly operations was probably 440-odd.

Interesting way to look at the British OoB, so why do you include non-operational/non front line 109s in the German OoB and even those not in the ETO?

"On 31 January 1945 the combat units of the Luftwaffe and their associated Erganzungs Einheiten, had the following strength in Bf109 types. These are on hand totals, they include both 'frontline' and 'other' units. Included are all aircraft operational and non-operational at the time."

Why have reserve a/c if they were not ready to fly operations? That would mean a returning a/c that went U/S from a morning mission would make the squadron 1 a/c short for an afternoon mission.

[Kurfürst]

Milo, I think you missed the thread and probalby your mind with that german oob thingie. nobody even remotely mentioned that here. Otherwise I merely qouted another guys post with information.

Guppy, that`s good info, i will look into it when I have time.

[Kurfürst]

The 10Sqn of MkIX/mid1943 info is for the fighter command/2ndtaf only in england.  It comes from foreman, iirc. I saved the page somwhere. 10 MkIXs, 37 Mk Vs Sqn plus the change at that time in Britian.

Was 145 Sqn`s MkVIIIs the operational debut of the type in Europe in mid-43?

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Milo, I think you missed the thread and probalby your mind with that german oob thingie. nobody even remotely mentioned that here. Otherwise I merely qouted another guys post with information.

Guppy, that`s good info, i will look into it when I have time.

My my Kurfy another insult. That was a quote of yours from another thread, or have you forgotten what you wrote?

As usual, you manipulate data and take the 'best' for the Germans and give the 'worst' for the British.

The point being, if you want to include second line and front line, even in other theatres, German a/c in the numbers of 109s you state that are available then the reserve Spitfires in a British squadrons should also be counted.

Even at 16 a/c per squadron (for an average) that is 592 Spitfires in 37 squadrons. Any deficet would, and could, be replaced easily, and quickly, from MUs.

BTW, this thread's subject is 150 fuel use. Do you still claim that 150 fuel was not the predominate fuel used by fighters as you did in the thread on Butch's board until you got the thread locked?

With 55.7% of British avgas production from Feb 44 being 150, and bombers using much more 100 fuel, what a/c would use the excess 150 fuel that was available? That 6,030,500 gals of 150 produced in Nov 44 was enough for 68,500 Spitfire sorties.

[Angus]

Rattle around at will, but the definate case is that the 150 oct fuel for the RAF was in 1944/1945 widely available, while the LW was down to pulling their macines around the ramp with oxen, just to save fuel. (guess they ate them afterwards, hehe)

Anyway, all jokes skipped, it seems like the RAF fighter command did indeed have lots of 150 octs fuel to use.