brut power is not always the best answer.

[Nomde]

Frenchy,
Here's where you an I part on opinions. This is an act of war, it is worse than Pearl Harbor. It is my opinion that FDR knew of the immenent attack on Pearl and let it occur because WW2 was a conflict that the US had to enter in order to bring our full force (military and civilian) against the Axis. The "isolationist/liberals" did a fine job of almost letting Hitler dine with the Queen Mother for tea.
Our entire industrial complex rose to supply our military with the tools to do the job. This is an act which deserves a similar response. The organizations responsible will be known, if they aren't already.
We are not goin to attack some poor raghead who happenes to look like a good target that will make us feel good for killing "something" as payback.
This will be a co-ordinated response to finally "deal" with the terrorist problem. Already Hamas and the Islamic Jihad has claimed "no responsibility" They know that this act will impact on them negatively. This is one of those moments that brings the US together and we will work with our Allies to rid everyone of this ongoing pest.
As far as the "Martyr" concept goes... it is a failed policy which we have been following and it's time to deal with this problem realistically.

With respect, your freind

[Greg 'wmutt' Cook]

All we can be sure of at this time is that tomorrow morning, our children will awaken to in a different America.
To compare this event to the 1941 attack upon Pearl Harbor would be incorrect.  This attack has no decleration of war assoiated with it, no goal of destorying military assets, and no strategy for the prolonged wageing of a war.
  Moreover, There is no Government or landed country behind these actions.   No face of the enemy, as it were, for us to declare a war upon.  In point, this was not a military action.
   Durring my time in the US Army, I served as a Combat Engineer and worked extensively with land mines.  The main theroy behind the use of mines and booby-traps is not to kill or injure the enemy.  The psycological effects of having your squadmates killed by a faceless, unknown enemy, that cannot be targeted by your rage, is far more effective in defeating you than simply killing you.
Henceforth the title Terrorism.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
 
Flying Mongrels Home
"Destined to replace the mudshark in popular mythology"

[Wlfgng]

I disagree.

This is an act of war on America.  It's military in nature... but uses terrorism as it's vehicle... but it's an attack just the same.  

In fact it's worse.
Using innocent civillians as a weapon against innocent civillians is horrid.

We, as a nation, should be outraged!!!

It's the 'be nice to everyone' naivety (sp) that has allowed this to happen.
Our own complacency now comes back to haunt us.

I respect many peoples and countries but not naievly.  I demand that 'friends' prove themselves to be friends.  I don't think the country should blindly 'trust' everyone that shows up on our doorsteps.

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Wlfgng ]

[Bozon12]

these days, suicide terrorist attacks are more of rutine than exeption in my country.
infact, we had 3 of them yesterday, and we avrage one every other day (succesfull or a failed attempt).

my silly goverment had already tried just about every option suggested in this forum, exept for nukes.
where had it brought us?
we are now condamed by the rest of the world, leaders threatened to be trialed as war criminals, and public safty is worse than ever.

you can't fight terrorizm directly.
the only way to beat terorizm is by patience, persistance, and staburness. take a blow and stay on your feet. do not play their game. do not loose morality.
It takes time, it's unpleasant, it might get you or your loved ones. but ther's no other way.
america has nothing to fear. no terrorist attack, even the biggest one in history, can bring it down.

STAND TALL, Laugh back!
keep cool.

the world might have been a much nicer place if we could respawn in the tower.

Bozon

[Naso]

Bozon, I must say this:

"Salute!"

Reading this words by an Israel man, raise my hopes for a fair and paceful solution of many problems in the world.

<S!> again.

[Wlfgng]

Fair and peacefull?  I can only dream of that.

However, your words are wise Bozon.

Stand tall,
take a stand and stick by it,
don't give in to terrorism.

Carry on as best possible while aiding war against terrorism .  Information and vigilance.

[Naso]

Wlfgng, as I said is just an hope, but dont permit them to kill our hopes.

Not in the amount of Israel, but we in Italy had our ration of terrorism, by italians, against italians.

Revenge is'nt the best option, make things worse.

[DanielMcIntyre]

Frenchy if the US goverment knows about the KKK attacks on China then by all means China would have the right to launch a weapon of appropriate size and type to prevent this group from continuing its attacks. IMO of course.

BTW why are humans such efficient killers, why do we simulate combat when were not engaged in real combat, humans were designed to kill, we are killers (as you must realise if you've be watching the news lately) during this latter part of the century we tend to pretend that we are civilised (not murderers) but this is untrue.  We kill for sport, for personal gain, for political reasons and some for fun even.  I say lets continue this grand tradition but lets kill the bin lardasses and the saddam insanes rather then the lil footslogger guy that'd rather be at home with the family.

USA - break out the tomahawks!!!!!!!!!!

[Mathman]

Brute force may not be the answer.  However, I think I can safely say that to most people it is very satisfying.  I have no qualms saying that we should find whoever is responsible and terminate them in a fast, deliberate manner.  Do I think we should nuke anyone?  No, but a strong and forceful retaliation for this is the first step to keeping this from happening again.  It may be naive to say that, and I am sure it is.  However, we need to show that acts such as this will NOT be tolerated.

I do think that many of the posts saying we should nuke "them" are a response to our frustration.  I would be surprised if anyone, deep down, truly believed that we should nuke whoever it is.  Also, I think nuke is being used as a generic term for "bombing them so far back they have to reinvent the wheel" instead of the use of nuclear weapons.  I may be wrong concerning a few people, but I believe that is what a majority of those posting such things really mean.

May all terrorists know that their days of sleeping at night without worry that they will be hunted down are numbered.

-math

[Steven]

Frenchy,

I don't have time to read all this very carefully; but even so, I'm not clear what you are trying to say.  I agree that mass genocide is not the answer.  However, I am in support of a military reaction and am very willing to take my chances on who will take the place of those responsible.  Who knows, it may actually be someone of reason and that is indeed a possibility.  It's a gamble, but our gamble on keeping tabs and direct dialogue with these types came up bust today.  I publicly support a military reaction against those who are responsible for this and those who harbor this group.  If we conclude who is responsible and the country he is residing does not hand him/them over, then I take that as support and direct participation in the act of war on me and my country.  It is war, do not mistake it even if the battles are quick but spaced apart in large amounts of time aka USS Cole, Embassy bombings, etc..  Communication has now failed us and it's a very sad fact of life but there are times when you need to meet force with force.

I'm suspect of your intelligence background and suspect you are speaking a little bit out of the bounds of your background unless your bringing that up was not meant to make me take stock in your opinions of this a bit more.  And I disagree, Sadam will be no more a martyr of his country than Stalin or Hitler and many, many others.  Even so, a martyr poses no direct threat to me and so I don't mind a martyr. I do mind a threat to my lifestyle and sovereignty and am prepared  

Your suggestion for rewarding these people with education seems ludicrous.  We are just darn lucky these people did not have any nuclear weapons.  If you don't think they wouldn't use them, look at today's events to see how far they will go to conduct genocide against my USA.

Seek and destroy and do not show any leniency.

-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels

[Kweassa]

Taking in Zygote's scenario:

 KKK attacks China, China decides to take military action. Then the KKK retreats back to America and as MOST un-lawful groups do, they dissolve into public background.

 China wants them turned over. US answers "We feel sorry, we do not in anyway agree to this sort of action. We will do best to apprehend them OURSELVES and turn them over to you". Can the US government apprehend the scoundrels? Will[/i] the US government do so? China's not so sure. US and China aren't exactly 'close friends'.

 Why, I'm sure Americans will be EXTREMELY amused when China declares war on US - "You shouldn't harbor terrorists". They decide to use direct military force despite the KKK scoundrels are within boundaries of US jurisdiction. Of course, this, no doubt is illegal. I'm very convinced such action will be criticized by every type of politicians, scholars, critics out there. Nobody can justify China in this course of action.

 ...

 If it were the case of Middle East and US, as it looks like it would soon be, can US be justified when China in the imaginary scenario cannot?

 I have lived in the states, I've been at most places that went down, I spent my whole young life there. America is like a second home to me, too. I sympathize, and despite that i'm an atheist, I still had to pray for the unfortunate, despite I didn't even know WHO I was praying to. It seems we lost some of our own business men in WTC, too.

 But direct use of force, the "justice" you people are so sure of, can open new tragedies. Some might say "Its an acceptable risk". Pity. The moment other lives become 'acceptable risk', there is nothing which America can say that is different from the terrorist.

 I sincerely hope America, despite wounds and deep sorrow, indeed show to the world that they can match what the highest ideals of their country stand for... and put a leash on all those oaths of "Vengeance" and "Blood".

[Steven]

Kweassa,

Not you again.  Let's walk away from hypothetical scenarious including this KKK and China one because it's really a very dumb one.  For one thing, we here are not dealing with an isolated incident.  I'm all for finding the right group, though evidence is mounting against a certain group who has for years openly claimed a goal to kill Americans.  I'm of the opinion we need more time to come to a conclusion.  But how many embassies, jetliners, ships and centers of commerce have the KKK destroyed in China and years of threats against the sovereignty of China and its people in your example?  The USA most certainly would investigate and would not allow any such group to simply dissolve back into society. The USA has extradited many people even for such things so minor as the murder of one single, solitary person.  So this scenario spoken of is pretty stupid.  Shoot, why not just let terrorists tie all those passengers to the front of the airliner before crashing it into the Western world's economic center and really let them have fun?  These people will DIE to kill Americans and so I opt as one course of avenue to let them die BEFORE they kill Americans if we cannot apprehend them by normal means.  

I support the action to seek out the criminals who wage war on me and my country.  I support our country in treating any group or nation who harbors and does not produce for trial those responsible and treating that soveriegnty as waging war on my country too and subject to the appropriate responses.  If we discover who is responsible for this private act of war and the soveriegnty they preside in does assist in recourse, then all is well.  You should have no fear.

And name this American ideal.  "Speak softly yet carry a big stick"?  "Don't tread on me"?  "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee"?  

Here's a hypothetical scenario... we do nothing.  When does it stop?  It didn't after the USS Cole, etc, etc, etc.  Does it stop after they lob a few nuclear weapons?

-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels

[Urchin]

Bush said in his address "We will make no distinctions between those who COMMIT these acts, and those who HARBOR them".  To me, that is the best phrase to use.  The Afghans need to realize that harboring Bin Laden was the worst mistake they could have made.  Hopefully, we will hit them so hard they will WISH the Soviets had won the war and absorbed their country.

[Kweassa]

You know, that's pretty much the TYPICAL reaction to these sorts of terrorism over all these years.

 "Make no distinction."

 Open testimony towards war. Any sort of threat to "America", whether is is of most base terrorism, or just a small country wanting independence etc etc.. its met with brute force.

 Yes, this time, there is no other way but to say the US, deserves sympathy. But what of times before? What of future incidences? Why DO people target the US? Do Americans look ugly?

 I remember, Puke, when you said "people of those countries should not let a government which harbors terrorism stand". Yes, I agree, it is very true.

 And as much, the people of your country maybe should rethink of the US politics, and the government which harbors diplomatical/international policies that inevitably brings all sorts of bloodshed.

 In the end, who empowered the so called dictators of the middle east in the firt place? Who keep butting into places where they shouldn't be? Who funded Afghanistani rebels in cold war?

 'Boomerang' comes to mind.

[Thunder]

Kweassa,
You have an agenda..
My thoughts on you posts and opinions...

 

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Thunder ]