Author Topic: So who won the war?  (Read 2199 times)

Offline Hangtime

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So who won the war?
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2005, 12:07:17 PM »
Well, we really musta blown the genocide thing... there's an awful lotta Indian lands, reservations and Casino's lying around.
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Offline Skydancer

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So who won the war?
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2005, 12:10:39 PM »
Theres still quite a few Jewish people in Europe, Tootsies in Ruanda, Moslems in Bosnia etc. Doesn't mean there was no Genocide!

Anyhow enough already. Thats past history. We're living now

I'm off to enjoy the sun that just came out.:aok
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 12:14:06 PM by Skydancer »

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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So who won the war?
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2005, 12:22:32 PM »
If you want to count it by casualties, the Russians come in first with 10-30 million. The German and European Jews would then be second with 6-9 million.

But then having a high casualty rate is not necessarily a measure of contribution.

The whole world LOST, with untold millions killed, and property destruction that is probably just as hard to quantify.

You can decide who won and who lost by seeing who surrendered.

There is no way anyone can say with absolute certainty WHAT FACTOR contributed more to victory. As such, no country, or even group of countries, can make an absolute claim to being the one or ones who contributed the most to victory. Most all claims are subjective at best.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2005, 12:27:40 PM »
Genocide is most often defined as the elimination or attempted elimination of an entire race, creed, religion, etc.

However, when said race, creed, religion etc, declares war on anyone else, you really can't call those they declare war on genocidal when they attack or defend themselves.

Japan is not only a nation, but is also made up almost exclusively of the Japanese race. As such, the Allies could be considered genocidal by the same standard as the US itself is considered genocidal in the wars with the Indians.
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Offline rshubert

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So who won the war?
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2005, 01:11:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
I always find it amusing that certain of our cousins on the other side of the pond are only too happy to take credit for the victory in 1918 yet as members of the victorious side and signatories to the resulting ceasefire refuse to shoulder even a proportion of the blame for the failure to enforce the peace that ended so tragically in 1939.

Oh and Lazs, as a nation you are in no position to pass judgement on Britain's imperial past and the terms of its "ownership" of various segments of the planet. You would do well to remember that our "indians" now make up the largest democracy on the planet, whereas we all know what happened to your "indians" don't we?



Our history teaches that we tried to make the peace of 1918 more lenient on the Central Powers, via Wilson's 14 point plan.  That plan was rejected by the French and (iirc) the British as a non-starter.  

The French were PISSED because the western parts of their country had been devastated by the war, millions had been killed and they wanted revenge.  The Brits were PISSED because of the huge loss of life and treasure due to the war.  Both were interested in making sure the Germans couldn't do it again.  That's why they imposed the strict terms on the Germans.  

The major flaw in the plan was that they did not remake the social power structures in Germany, or make any fundamental political changes there.  The second mistake was not to enforce the treaty.  

That same mistake was NOT made after WW2.  The power of the (economic and political) aristocracy was broken, and Germany was fundamentally changed by the long occupation.

Offline Nashwan

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So who won the war?
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2005, 01:33:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
By the way, Monty got his prettythang handed to him until he got intelligence breaks. So long as Rommel and Monty were on equal terms as far as intelligence and counter intelligence, Monty was getting whipped.


Actually the other way around. Rommel was winning whilst he had one of the best ever intelligence sources on his side, as soon as he lost it, he didn't win another battle.

The source was Frank Fellers, US military attache in Cairo. He posted daily reports on British positions and plans back to Washington, using a code first the talians, then the Germans had cracked.

Unlike the British intelligence on Rommel, which consisted mainly of supply information, Fellers posted information down to individual raids, battalion level deployments, which units were below strength, etc.

Most of Rommel's reputation was built whilst he could see both sides of the board, his own and his enemy's deployments.

Offline Nashwan

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So who won the war?
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2005, 01:44:49 PM »
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Originally posted by Hangtime
You scewed the Poles, not us. Eyeball their treatment in your country after the war, sidelined at the victory parades. The Polish government and free forces fled to England after the Gemans conquored 'em. They fought with British units. Not American.  Your 'deportation' of their free troops back to Russian Occupied Poland and certain execution..


I think you're getting mixed up here.

The "deportations back to execution" were of forces that had fought with the Germans, not against them, eg Cossacks.

The Poles serving with British forces were not deported, they were given a choice to return to Poland or stay in Britain. Just over half  (123,000) stayed,  about 105,000 went home, and were not executed.

From General Anders' memoirs:

""They were, however, obviously sincere, and there was every reason for gratitude to them for the assurances they gave that no soldiers would be repatriated against their will, and that demobilisation would not be hurried. For me, there was, indeed, no alternative but to agree with their proposals. If I disagreed, I should have been asked, "what then ?" and have had no answer, while Britain, to her great credit, was the only country which realised that there was a moral obligation to these soldiers who had fought so long by the side of the Allies and which was therefore prepared to make provision for the future of all who would not risk returning home.""
 
Quote
Yes, we took a part of bthe abandonment of Poland after the war.. But it was England that did the deed. Don't try that Boroda re-direct crap on this side of the pond, Skydancer.


Most historians agree it was Roosevelt who was either taken in by Stalin at Yalta, or who was too ill to stand up to him. The post war allocation of eastern Europe certainly owes more to Roosevelt than Churchill, although Stalin and facts on the ground were by far the most important factors.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 01:55:24 PM by Nashwan »

Offline Skydancer

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So who won the war?
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2005, 06:30:24 PM »
Very succinctly put.

Offline lazs2

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So who won the war?
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2005, 11:23:07 AM »
wounded knee covered one incident and really didn't go into the factors that led up to it.

White settlers were slaughtered down to the last man woman and child many times.... one event had a wagon train of nearly 100 people killed, mutilated and tortured.   How would you fight the people who fought like that?

we played by their rules...

much as we did the japs in WWII and the germans... the germans treated our pow's and combatants fairly (for the most part) and so we did theirs... the japs were cruel torturing barbarians so that is how we fought them.

you started slavery so it seems only fair that you would be first to end it.   Still... I doubt that those indiginous people working in your colonies under british rule could see the fine line of distinction between being a slave and a worker.

lazs

Offline Sandman

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So who won the war?
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2005, 11:34:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
wounded knee covered one incident and really didn't go into the factors that led up to it.

White settlers were slaughtered down to the last man woman and child many times.... one event had a wagon train of nearly 100 people killed, mutilated and tortured.   How would you fight the people who fought like that?

we played by their rules...


Not so... the natives learned about total war from us and not the other way around.
sand

Offline MiloMorai

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So who won the war?
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2005, 11:40:36 AM »
laz reads too many 'white man' books.

About time he went back to school and took a coarse on American indian history and culture.

Offline MiloMorai

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So who won the war?
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2005, 11:43:06 AM »
The Brits started slavery laz? Your education is lacking. Slavery is as old as prostitution.

Offline Skydancer

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So who won the war?
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2005, 11:49:55 AM »
Correct its a bit daft to say we started slavery realy isn't it? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say we were the first nation that actualy abolished slavery. We also managed to end our empire relatively bloodlessly. Not completely but compared to the death throes of some other nations empires we did ok I think.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2005, 12:00:41 PM »
One should look at Belgium in the late 1800s-early 1900s and their slavery in the Congo. This puts mosts other countries at the bottom of the pillar with regard to explotation and abuses.

Offline Dowding

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So who won the war?
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2005, 12:25:46 PM »
Oh my. The British started slavery.

And Spartacus and his friends were just poorly paid masochists in your version of history Lazs?
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