Dogfighting in a mossie...

[TexMurphy]

Been tempted to learn to dogfight in the Mossie.

My question is...

Is it possible to E fight in it or is BnZ the only realistic option?

Tex.

[hogenbor]

The biggest problem with the Mossie is that it bleeds E so quickly. So even with a good E reserve it is quite difficult to BnZ in it and it becomes mushy at the top of a zoom as well.

Instantaneous turn is ok, but sustained you will wallow like a hippo in a mudbath.

It has been quite a while since I flew a Mossie, but shallow dive attacks at moderately high speeds work best for me. You can throw out an awful amount of concentrated firepower, so anything that you'll hit will be cut to shreds. But it's simply not a knife fighter.

[DamnedRen]

I absolutely luv killin mossies and 38's! Bigger planes = bigger target. Get on up there and have fun!!! Killed at least one of each last night.

They are great rides!



____________________
Ren
The Damned

[stantond]

Find a Mosquito in the MA and film your engagements.  Thrila is an expert in it.  Try and see if he can duel with you and allow you to film.

The Mosquito is fast and climbs ok, but it has a poor acceleration, sustained turn, or horizontal turn.  Vertical manuevers and rudder authority are pretty good when it is slowed down and flaps are used.  You need a energy advantage (or surprise) when attacking.  It's guns are some of the best in the game.

I would not really call the Mossie a dogfighter, but it is a twin engine fighter.  I would classify the Mosquito as a BnZ plane but it can E fight some too, provided only vertical maneuvers are used.  It is a good plane, but its 'strengths' are limited compared to other planes.  If you are persistent, you can learn it's strengths and get nme's to fight to them.  I usually fly it for attack sortes and BnZ based on opportunities.  I have learned to watch out for lone Mosquitos flying around.


Regards,

Malta

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by TexMurphy


Is it possible to E fight in it or is BnZ the only realistic option?

Tex.

Boom and Zoom is E fighting...




ack-ack

[BTW]

Something in my head full of cobwebs thinks B&z may (or may not)be E fighting and E fighting may or may not be b&z.

A 700mph pass and running for home is not b&z, I think

[Drano]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Boom and Zoom is E fighting...




ack-ack

Only to a certain extent. I'd say the difference is something like this:

In pure BnZ the attacker has an excess of either alt or speed or both and makes a series of high speed slashing attacks hoping the defender doesn't turn away in time to avoid his shots. Here its more akin to a series of engagements and disengagements as the attacker generally extends quite a long way after each pass. Hence the ability to "boom" and "zoom". All you need for a BnZ attack is pure speed. Anyone who would follow a BnZ'r up is just plain stupid. I could hardly classify that an E kill while you could certainly say it is by definition. Gotta be closer to a didn'tknowanybetterkill tho.

 Pure E-fighting is similar but the difference is the attacker is trying to induce the defender into following him upwards maintaining the energy advantage until the defender is at such a disparity he can no longer manuever, ideally at a lower altitude than the attacker. A textbook E-fighting attack has induced the defender to stall under the attacker. In this case the attacker swoops back down to easily chop up the defender. If he misses(like I do a lot) he can simply climb and repeat. In E-fighting the attacker need not extend to the next sector. Depending on the advantage he started with it could only be a few K away--again generally upwards. An E-fight attack generally requires a plane with superior climbing ability and holds its energy better than the attacker's in the verticle. You want a plane that can go up well.

Now a BnZ attack that's been consistently thwarted by an alert defender can devolve into an E fight but generally it doesn't work the other way, that is unless the attacker has a far superior plane in the speed and climb categories than the defender and ends up with that excessive ammount of alt/speed purely by overabundance of performance. But if you hadn't killed the guy by this point.......

Drano

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by stantond
I have learned to watch out for lone Mosquitos flying around.
Regards,

Malta

I practically fall outa the cockpit rolling over to "in" on a Mossie, 110 or 38. It's just soooooooo hard to pass up such huge targets and a fun to fight

Sorry if it sounds like I'm drollin at the thought, but I am!

________________
Ren
The Damned

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Drano
Only to a certain extent.

Drano

Boom and Zoom is a tactic of Energy Fighting, it is not a seperate "fighting style" like Energy and Angles (turn) Fighting.


ack-ack

[stantond]

Yes, BnZ is a tactic of energy fighting.  However, since it is used so much as the sole tactic of energy fighting, it has its own name (BnZ) and following.  Much like snorkleing is part of SCUBA diving, if all one ever does is use a snorkel they aren't SCUBA diving.  Similarly, if a person only jumps off cliffs into water, I doubt most people consider them a cliff diver.  However, some will.


Regards,

Malta

[Ack-Ack]

Just because it is one of the predominate tactics of energy fighting in the MA, it does not make it seperate in itself from energy fighting.

Spiral climbs and Rope A Dopes are just as common, does that make those each and distinct fighting styles seperate from Energy fighting?  No, because the basics of all three tactics is to use your superiorer E in an attempt to get the enemy plane to burn his so you can gain an angle for the shot.


ack-ack

[BTW]

What meant was some people B&z in a way completely contradictory to "e fighting." They dive down  from 15k buffeting and make a single pass at 600 mph and run for home. B&z? well maybe. E fighting? HECK NO! Or more common, the guy who blows through diving below the enemy. I don't know how you could call that "e fighting."

[Drano]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack


Spiral climbs and Rope A Dopes are just as common, does that make those each and distinct fighting styles seperate from Energy fighting?  No, because the basics of all three tactics is to use your superiorer E in an attempt to get the enemy plane to burn his so you can gain an angle for the shot.


ack-ack

But here's where you have it wrong.  In BnZ you don't necessarily want the plane (or planes) you're making a pass on to follow you at all. (But as I said before--if the guy's dumb enough--well OK!).You're not looking to actually get tangled up with the other guy or anybody else as that would burn up *your* E--which is a no-no. Might put you at the disadvantage in a bad situation(slow and outnumbered).

A BnZ guy is coming in hot and *staying hot*, hitting hard (if the shot's there) and getting away. Period. If he's not doing that he's *not doing BnZ*. BnZ isn't really a "fight" of any kind. It a series of attacks and extensions--generally very long entensions in a safe direction. Not what I'd call E management that might require any degree of skill and therefore hardly what I'd classify as E-fighting.(Again unless the dummy follows you up but that's more on him ain't it? Wasn't your skill but his stupidity that got him kilt. That might be defined as E fighting but its not really in my book if he made it that way.)

Almost the polar opposite of this would be a spiral climb or rope--what I'd call E-fighting by definition-- in which the engagement can be painfully slow as the differences in speed are generally not nearly in the same neighborhood as in BnZ. E fighting is all about relativity. He who has a better handle his energy state relative his opponent's will be the victor. You might both be going 350 but its a question of which plane can hold the verticle longer. Which can zoom better. Which can climb steeper. Is the other guy doing 360? Is it enough for him to catch me? There's an element of danger in E fighting that's not present in BnZ. You're almost continually directly engaged with your opponent often showing your 6 and often spending long periods in guns range. BnZ you're in and out of guns range in what? About 2-4 seconds? Bing bang boom gone. It's possible to screw up E fighting with a little bad judgement. If you screw up a BnZ attack and can screw it up regular you oughta just go ahead and switch to tanks. Just sayin'  tm

    Drano

[Manedew]

I think E fighting sometimes means getting slower than con on purpose...

Most guys think about things all wrong ...


when i fight good pilots it's a contest between who can get slowest fastest at some points, and who can keep the most E through moves at other points.....

E fighting isn't always about keeping the most energy you can.

most folks I fight don't understand this in the least ... I can just sit there and let them fly into my guns more or less.... that's E fighting to me.... when their speed kills em'

the slower you are, the faster you turn......

[Drano]

Another difference:

Generally in BnZ you're Zooming with your excess speed(hence the name).

In E-Fighitng you're generally just climbing.

Difference between zooming and climbing.

Zoom is your plane's use of kinetic energy. Objects in motion tend to want to stay in motion. A heavy plane going fast can go upwards a long time as it takes gravity a longer time to start pulling it down. P-47's are a great example of this. They climb pretty much like bricks but they zoom like nothing else.

Climbing is purely a product of the lifting ability of your plane's wings and engine performance together. A 109G-10 climbs like a weather balloon but doesn't zoom near as well as its a very light plane--especially relative to say a Jug.

         Drano