Author Topic: Dogfighting in a mossie... (Read 1127 times)

BTW · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2005, 09:40:04 PM »

I always picture e fighters as effeciency consultants for microsoft.
B & z is not efficient.
And they're easy to spot. You ever get into a 5 minute fight with a plane and start feeling anemic? He's an e fighter making gradual gains until all your blood is gone. Better to dive away and take your chances there.

BTW · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2005, 09:51:54 PM »

I guess thats what I find different - good e fighting is sophisticated cruelty - the target suffers as it dies. B & z can be a master or dweebery. An e fighter is never a dweeb.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2005, 10:02:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Drano
But here's where you have it wrong. In BnZ you don't necessarily want the plane (or planes) you're making a pass on to follow you at all. (But as I said before--if the guy's dumb enough--well OK!).You're not looking to actually get tangled up with the other guy or anybody else as that would burn up *your* E--which is a no-no. Might put you at the disadvantage in a bad situation(slow and outnumbered).

Drano

No where did I say the object of a BnZ attack was to get the other guy to follow you up into a Rope A Dope. I just used the Rope-A-Dope as an example of another common E fighting tactic used in the MA.

The object of the Boom and Zoom tactic is to get your target to bleed his energy in his evasive breaks to avoid your passes that it sets up a shot for you, while you maintain your energy state.

This is just one of the various tactics E fighters use. And that's all it is, one tactic among a few.

ack-ack

RightF00T · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2005, 10:09:52 PM »

On the subject of Mossies, it is great to vulch in and works wonder over an enemy field. They get greedy and tend to just see you as a JABOer so you can capitalize on this and rope them out. The cannons dont leave them much room for mistakes, so string them out at d1.5k, then pounce down just before they stall out. Ive had multiple 8+ kill runs in the Mossie, and have landed a few. The key is knowing when to get out. Usually, more than 3 slightly lower cons will end in death.

Also, you can move your head position up indefinitely to the top making deflection shots near impossible to miss.

MOSQ · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2005, 11:14:14 PM »

Be ready for a pilot wound on nearly every sortie. I've literally been pilot wounded on 10 straight Mosquito sorties. Any attack on a GV is likely to end in a pilot wound. Apparently AH models zero armour in front of the pilot, and with no engine any .30 cal bullet in the nose results in a pilot wound.

Beware the tail first backwards slide/stall. Once it starts you better be pretty high or you're going to auger before you recover.

The Mosquito is like a FW -A8, it will drop speed like crazy in a turn, giving you one good snapshot. Better not miss that one opportunity because any fighter will outturn you after that.

And standby with a fire extiguisher, the Mosquito flames like a turbo charged Ronson. At least it used too, maybe HTC has fixed that issue.

Positives:
Tremendous range (it is a bomber after all).
Tremendous guns, at least as long as the Hispanos hold out.

Drano · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2005, 12:11:53 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
No where did I say the object of a BnZ attack was to get the other guy to follow you up into a Rope A Dope. I just used the Rope-A-Dope as an example of another common E fighting tactic used in the MA.

The object of the Boom and Zoom tactic is to get your target to bleed his energy in his evasive breaks to avoid your passes that it sets up a shot for you, while you maintain your energy state.

This is just one of the various tactics E fighters use. And that's all it is, one tactic among a few.

ack-ack

I think what you're saying is they're one and the same and I'm trying to throw a little clarity on the subject as they're certainly not.

Don't look now but your descrition of what you call BnZ is actually a good example of energy fighting. Its a horrible example of BnZ tho. Here's why.

In a BnZ attack the object is to not bleed your E state in any way shape or form. The defender or defenders E states are irrelevant so long as they lack the ability to outzoom you. You're not going to actively engage anyone in particular for longer than it takes to get a guns solution on them as doing that presents a possible danger to you and that's right out. A BnZ attack is made always against lower preferrably otherwise occupied NME. A BnZ attack is the preferred method if the attacker is also outnumbered by same. BnZ attack is as follows: go in hot--fast, hit hard taking any shots that present themselves--don't force shots (it bleeds E), and get out fast using that great speed to zoom back up to a position of safety. Make only shallow low-G turns or rolls on the pass if any at all. Repeat as necessary or until higher bad guys come along to break up your party.

In this situation you wouldn't go down and get tangled up in a turnfight--you'd get ganged right away. How many times have we seen it? If you decided to pick on a guy near the edge and try to get him to stall under you(that's E fighting btw) chances are you'd give the other guys time to grab up to you and again you'd get ganged--just not right away. So you see turnfighting and e-fighting are the wrong tactics for the situation. BnZ otoh is perfect. You have plenty of targets and are always going way too fast to be in any sort of danger. If you're a better shot than I am and most are you'll prolly end up with a few scalps for your trouble too. And that's what BnZ is all about--staying out of the danger zone--being simply too fast for the other guys to defend against. Both offense and defense of the whole shebang is excess speed. No real tactic to it at all. Generally the guys you kill aren't gonna see you coming or will be unable to avoid you because of something someone else has done.

BnZ isn't gonna work against a single opponent as anyone with more than about 7 brain cells will be able to simply avoid it pass after pass after pass. Why do you think so many guys complain about guys that do that? Its like--non-fun. To defend against a BnZ attack there's only one cardinal rule--don't go up. You need not make a blackout break turn either. Good timing is all that's needed. And turn just enough to deny him a shot. A fast diving plane generally won't be able to follow a break turn if only because of the speed disparity. Using that speed against the guy is simple enough to do. More often than not a guy doing this "tactic" will eventually get greedy and follow the defender in one of his break turns breaking a cardinal rule of BnZ by helping his opponent equalize E states. I love it when this happens. If he hasn't become too greedy he's either dead or the BnZ engagement has ended as he's buggin out. Either way--problem solved.

E-fighting is closer to what you describe. I think you're just getting the terminology confused by calling it BnZ which its not. You're getting a guy to blow his E--likely because he went up while breaking or simply following you up which is the exact wrong thing to do. This is where the rope/spiral climb are--its E fighting pure and simple. Nothing at all like BnZ other than there's a lot of up and down component to both.

Drano

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2005, 05:56:46 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Drano
I think what you're saying is they're one and the same and I'm trying to throw a little clarity on the subject as they're certainly not.

No I'm not. I am saying that they are both E fighting tactics.

Quote

Don't look now but your descrition of what you call BnZ is actually a good example of energy fighting. Its a horrible example of BnZ tho.

In a BnZ attack the object is to not bleed your E state in any way shape or form. The defender or defenders E states are irrelevant so long as they lack the ability to outzoom you. You're not going to actively engage anyone in particular for longer than it takes to get a guns solution on them as doing that presents a possible danger to you and that's right out. A BnZ attack is made always against lower preferrably otherwise occupied NME. A BnZ attack is the preferred method if the attacker is also outnumbered by same. BnZ attack is as follows: go in hot--fast, hit hard taking any shots that present themselves--don't force shots (it bleeds E), and get out fast using that great speed to zoom back up to a position of safety. Make only shallow low-G turns or rolls on the pass if any at all. Repeat as necessary or until higher bad guys come along to break up your party.

Drano

Actually, in a BnZ attack, the most common maneuvers used is either the Cuban 8 or the Half Cuban. In both of these BnZ maneuvers, you do lose your energy in the climb but you regain it in the dive.

The defenders E state is relative because if they have sufficient energy, they can force the attacker into the defensive quite quickly.

You ever hear of the phrase "tap dancing on their heads"? That refers to the part when in the BnZ pass, you make the other plane break turn, which then in turns bleeds his energy off. Then either on the next pass, you can elect to dance on his head again or if he's sufficiently slow enough that he presents you a shot. Then you use your superior E state to extend beyond gun range, zoom up and repeat.

In any case, the way I outlined it above or even what you said, BnZ is just another among few different Energy Fighting tactics. And if you want to split hairs, there are also different variations of BnZ. But that still doesn't change the fact it is and will always be just a tactic.

ack-ack

TexMurphy · « **Reply #22 on:** July 13, 2005, 08:59:58 AM »

*Yawn*

Looks around for posts on topic.

*Yawns some more and crawls back to sleep*

thrila · « **Reply #23 on:** July 13, 2005, 10:16:53 AM »

I've got plenty of films if there is anything in particular you are after tex.

I don't usually bnz or E fight with the mossie. I'm generally aggressive and burn my E for angles because that is what the mossie is good at, i try to dump my E which will allow me to stick on the 6 of a con for long enough to shoot it down. The mossie can E fight however due to the poor climb and acceleration it doesn't make an outstanding one. IMO the mossie turns very well at high speed and ok at low speed. Once the speed gets below 200mph a notch of flaps can be lowered to aid in turning, often i'll drop them a notch maybe two for better turning for a second or two.

The mossie is great for forcing overshoots due to it's high E bleed, which i find particularly fun.

I've just come back from the beach and now off to work, i'll post more when i get back. Here's a film of me roping a spit to show the mossie can E figth if you want to. It did however take me a long time to be able to master the mossie when it's slow at the top of a rope.

Clifra Jones · « **Reply #24 on:** July 13, 2005, 11:15:51 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack

Actually, in a BnZ attack, the most common maneuvers used is either the Cuban 8 or the Half Cuban. In both of these BnZ maneuvers, you do lose your energy in the climb but you regain it in the dive.

ack-ack

I would not classify the Cuban 8 or half-cuban as BnZ tactics. This is classic engergy tactics. True we are talking symantecs here but in the classic MA environment I would not call it BnZ.

I think what you are talking about here can be more accuratly classified as a BnC tactic (Boom N Climb). True many people lump this in with BnZ but I would say that when you say BnZ to most pilots in AH they will think of the Boom-n-Run.

When I see a bandit attack me at high speed and then go straight up or nearly straight up I know I'm in for a hard time as this guy know what he is doing.

When I see a bandit attack and then extend to 1-1.5 Kliks out before they even attempt to bag some alt I know I can discount him for a while and look for other targets.

Not saying that one is better than the other. I'm saying that the 1st guys is actively trying to kill me and the second is more concerned with his own skin.

DamnedRen · « **Reply #25 on:** July 13, 2005, 11:46:06 AM »

Clifra....you're not supposed to post that info...

With everyone being afraid of their own shadows in the MA anymore us old guys have to resort to other methods to get ya'll ta fight us. Now I know an easy set up.

Your words....
"When I see a bandit attack and then extend to 1-1.5 Kliks out before they even attempt to bag some alt I know I can discount him for a while and look for other targets.

Not saying that one is better than the other. I'm saying that the 1st guys is actively trying to kill me and the second is more concerned with his own skin."

The second you discount someone for one extension or one turn is the time you will be shot down by some vet because you didn't give him the credit that perhaps you thought he didn't deserve.

That's almost the same as easing up on an attack. The second you do, on any plane, is when you may get your lunch handed to you.....

My suggestion is fight every single plane very aggressively but like he is an equal or better opponent then you will never be taken by surprise by making a snap judgement call of what appears to be a noob.

GooseAW · « **Reply #26 on:** July 13, 2005, 01:18:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MOSQ
Be ready for a pilot wound on nearly every sortie. I've literally been pilot wounded on 10 straight Mosquito sorties. Any attack on a GV is likely to end in a pilot wound. Apparently AH models zero armour in front of the pilot, and with no engine any .30 cal bullet in the nose results in a pilot wound.

Beware the tail first backwards slide/stall. Once it starts you better be pretty high or you're going to auger before you recover.

The Mosquito is like a FW -A8, it will drop speed like crazy in a turn, giving you one good snapshot. Better not miss that one opportunity because any fighter will outturn you after that.

And standby with a fire extiguisher, the Mosquito flames like a turbo charged Ronson. At least it used too, maybe HTC has fixed that issue.

Positives:
Tremendous range (it is a bomber after all).
Tremendous guns, at least as long as the Hispanos hold out.

It does tailslide terribly in AH! I've learned to get the nose over sooner than in other planes to avoid this (most the time).

It also still flames and the first hint of a hit from the rear.

I love killin over confident La's and Spits in my mossie

Vs all but the best turners, or the best sticks, I love a good knife fight in the Mossie. I prefer to use off plane/diagonals over the vertical or flat turn maneuvers. IMHO

Definately a top ten ride, if not top 5.

TexMurphy · « **Reply #27 on:** July 13, 2005, 05:54:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by thrila
IMO the mossie turns very well at high speed and ok at low speed. Once the speed gets below 200mph a notch of flaps can be lowered to aid in turning, often i'll drop them a notch maybe two for better turning for a second or two.

What would you compare it to?

I know this is individual as I know most people consider the jug (my main ride) a worse turner then P38s and Nikkies but I can out turn both in the jug.

So you as a pilot what planes do you feel comfortable out turning? By out turning I dont mean flat turns I mean, High YoYos, Obelique turn and anything that is a multi axis turn.

Tex

AmRaaM · « **Reply #28 on:** July 14, 2005, 10:16:52 PM »

your can out fly them, but you cant out turn either one. 3-6 turns vs either one and you're gonna die.

thrila · « **Reply #29 on:** July 15, 2005, 06:52:46 AM »

I'm not sure what i would compare the mossie too. I haven't really a lot of time with other planes, i went from the spit -> tiffie -> mossie over the years. With flaps out it's turn radius is very small, but it's turn rate is bad due it's poor acceleration. The planes i have the most trouble against are the latewar rides with fantatastic acceleration.

The mossie bleeds E so badly that i am confident to out turn anything within the first couple of turns at high speed. IMO the key to the mossie is to be aggressive, to dump your E as fast as you can to gain angles. If i was fighting a spitfire for instance I would try and get a shot off within 2 turns. If i didn't gain a favourable angle i would dive away a couple of K below, reverse at 2.0k and repeat. In any fight if i feel i'm not gaining the angle i will dive away to get some speed so i have more E to play with.

A large furball is different though. Sometimes i'll do the above if i want some quick action. If i feel like racking up some kills i'll do the standard stay fast, choose highest con first etc.