A Troubling Poll

[funkedup]

1776 I don't think anybody who suggests racial profiling for airline security has to be a racist.  Hell, if all arabs were banned from air travel in the US, the WTC/Pentagon attacks would never have happened.  Period.  Seems to me that is a valid reason for profiling that has nothing to do with hatred for any particular race.

But security measures like that are not consistent with the principles that this nation is based on, the principles that supposedly make us different from the barbarians who want to destroy us.

So I don't think it should be done.

However for people who are not US citizens and are here for work/travel/education/etc., there should be some very strict measures taken.

[Sandman]

Of course, El Al can do quite a bit in the name of security. They don't have that pesky Constitution gettin' in the way.

[10Bears]

LOL Snoopi

Since the last terrorist attack was done by American conservatives, Tim McVey et al, everyone wearing a
John Dere cap should have a lil’ poke up their fanny just to check if they got any homemade C-4 stashed up there.. jk

Hey Snoop are you back to hosting h2h games?.. I’d check but there’s a firewall at my server and I can’t seem to host or log in.

Got a couple of maps for ya.

[Toad]

IIRC, El Al does have and use a sophisticated profiling system. It appears to work.

We'll have to decide if we want to go that way. It's a major, major decision with very far reaching implications. Not one to be made as a knee-jerk response.

[AKDejaVu]

Wow sandman.. you just keep going and going.

Are you referring to the same US constitution that protects freedom of speech?  Ever try to say "I have a bomb" on an airline?  How about refusing to have your luggage searched?  Are we picking and chosing what parts of the constitution are ok to skimp on?  Or are we concerned with safety?

Profiling will occur regardless.  The setting the guidelines will be operating from a pretty large number of factors.  Things like people traveling with little or no luggage, young females traveling alone, any group of males traveling together, any skin color deemed high % risk or whatever other indicators have been presented as high-risk.

I'd like to see them scrutinize anyone and anything suspicious.  I'd like there to be some kind of experience/information to back that profiling up.  I'd like to see them catch or deter people before making it on the plane.

How about if we just call it descrimination if the airlines only use white anglo males to do the profiling?  Maybe we could call THAT discrimination.

AKDejaVu

[Sandman]

<sigh>

I'm sorry... you can't possibly justify violating someone's rights simply because they fit a racial profile. It's wrong.

Hmmm.. how are young females traveling alone a threat?

On September 16, an Indian immigrant gas station owner was shot to death and a Lebanese Amercan clerk was targeted but not injured by gunfire at another gas station in Mesa, Arizona. Frank Roque was charged with one count of first-degree murder and two counts of attempted murder. Roque was quoted as shouting, "I stand for America all the way!"

Racial profiling in action...

[AKSWulfe]

Okay, ask everyone to pull out their ID and/or green card if they have one.

Of course, when's the last time you heard of a Mexican coming to this country to do anything other than get a job and live a free life? I've never heard of a Mexican terrorist. Or an African, I've never heard of an African coming to our country simply to destroy it. Or a Jamaican, or a.... Well you see where I'm going.

From what background do the majority of terrorists come from?

Then that's your answer why they have to be racially profiled, you simply can't let them all walk by- unless you want a repeat of Tuesday.
-SW

[AKDejaVu]

I'm sorry... you can't possibly justify violating someone's rights simply because they fit a racial profile. It's wrong.

What part of their rights would be violated?  Asking them extra questions?  What?  A little more inconvenience while boarding an aircraft?

BTW.. did you know that some states require the elderly to come in for more frequent and stringent drivers tests?  I wonder why that is.

 

Hmmm.. how are young females traveling alone a threat?

How about the notion that a young female would be absolutely no threat, thus would be one of the premier smuggling platforms.  You see, terrorists and smugglers profile people too.  Some people realize this and take apropriate measures, others climb up on the high horse and refuse to acknowledge it.

If 90% of all highjackings involve an individual with Arab features... its pretty safe to say they will undergoe greater scrutiny at an airport.  I'm sorry that you feel that is a violation of their rights, but I'm even more sorry that there is so much data to back it up.

Now, if someone is refused service because of their skin color... or forced to move seats so that someone doesn't have to sit next to "a damn A-rab"... then there is a clear issue to be dealt with.  But if a recent rash of bombings involved a VERY large percentage of Arab citicenz, then some scrutiny at the gate is expected (I'm sure most being scrutinized will know this too).

Is it a good thing?  Nope.  Is it necessary?  Not really.  Is it racist?  Perhaps.  Is it based on false data?  Nope.

I'm all for giving eveyone a serious interrogation before entering a plane to avoid any misgivings here.  If that's what would make you feel better.  Or, we can endure the hysteria right now and know that it will die down sooner if people prove they are just as if not more trustworthy than those being let by.

 

On September 16, an Indian immigrant gas station owner was shot to death and a Lebanese Amercan clerk was targeted but not injured by gunfire at another gas station in Mesa, Arizona. Frank Roque was charged with one count of first-degree murder and two counts of attempted murder. Roque was quoted as shouting, "I stand for America all the way!"

Racial profiling in action...

Yeah.. right.  And this is a person that would not have done this under any other circumstance.  This person is a bigot.  He is labled a "racial profiler".  Anybody that does any kind or "racial profiling" must then be a bigot.

100% of the terrorists that highjacked aircraft were Arab.  Therefore, anyone that is Arab is a highjacker.

Wow... this is fun.  Lets keep picking and chosing who we can and can't label.  Then we can sit back and know that the people we chose to call names really deserved it while the people they chose to call names did not.

According to the tone of this thread, I must be a bigot.  I am not a bigot because of how I treat individuals, but rather how apropriate I think an airline's screening methods are.  I am a bigot despite working for a multinational group of people from most of the countries recently spat upon in this board with the same level of respect for each and every one of them that I'd have for any engineer with their experience and know-how.

Yes... it is so cut and dry.  Labeling should be as easy as it was made in the first post of this thread.  That way we wouldn't even have to ask Arab nationals more questions since they'd already be in jail.  yeah.. that's the answer... indescriminant descrimination.

AKDejaVu

[Sandman]

"Bill of Rights, Amendment IV - Right of search and seizure regulated.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Sorry, I don't consider it reasonable to search someone simply because they are Arab-American.

[AKSWulfe]

"probable cause" says it all, anyone can bend the law to fit their motives.

If we need to do that to make our country safer, why does it matter? The people who are innocent and honest citizens will only have to go through the added hassle for a while, while those who are terrorists are caught.
-SW

[AKDejaVu]

Technically... you are asserting that searching anyone prior to getting on an aircraft is unconstitutional.  That is flawed to the core.

People are not be subjected to searches right off the street.  People are being subjected to searches prior to boarding a commercial airliner.

Someday ask a customs inspector if they are more prone to search through the luggage of a mid 30's bearded long haired scruffy looking dude wearing an army fatigue jacket returning from Bogata.

So.. profiling occurs and has occured on airlines for some time.  That's pretty much widely accepted and widely ignored.  Now that its Arabs being profiled... it becomes vile.  There is a "lets pick the topic of the day and have fun" double standard being applied that smells like Ahi tuna.

Now... if someone is advocating searching and/or detaining citizens in their homes simply because of their heritage, we are going to have a problem.  I won't stand for it and I doubt many others will either.  The main difference is that one is an invasion of a private life while the other is someone willing to use someone's services at a price and at the risk of being searched.

But you should also know... that if we go to war with Afghanistan, any Afghani nationals will most likely be asked to leave the US.  That is also another form of security often times mistaken as discrimination.

AKDejaVu

[highflyer]

I agree with wulf on this one.

others have pointed out that for quite some time, a good majority of terrorists have been from arabic descent.

Those that are Just, and honorable will have nothing to hide.

Those that are not and have somthing to fear, know something.

its simple. This isnt a time to squabble over little rules and "we cant do this because of.."

This is a time of action, this is no game.

If we are to get down to busness with this issue, It needs to be addressed NO MATTER HOW it is done.


I think that we need to take the gloves off.

thats the reality of it.

[takeda]

yeah... you could make them wear a yellow crescent on their clothes, just for good measure.

[batdog]

Are you willing to die for freedom? Are you really? If yes then the profiling of an indiv because he's Arab is wrong. Thats NOT what America is about. We should STAND for freedom and equality... till our destruction or fall.


xBAT

[mrfish]

the terrorists that are sure to come are going to be arabs.

therefor, it's logical to pay special attention to arabs and make sure to search them more thoroughly.

it's unfortunate for patriotic arab americans, but so what? that's life...there isn't always a feel good solution, sometimes people just get a tough break.

it would be irresponsible for law enforcement to forego any clue and if they scrutinize arabs they take away the ability for the terrorists to disappear.

to be clear though - i think shouting racial epitaphs and engaging in violence against arab americans is stupid and juvenile because it doesn't lead to a more secure america or really accomplish anything. scrutiny however, is supported by logic (so long as it is done correctly) so i'm in favor of it regardless of how it makes people feel.