109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by gripen
I have given the source, it's from PRO, it should be easily findable for you.

[/B]


LOL... like I`d say, wanna see my evidence behind my claims? Sure, I will give you. Take a plane, come here in Budapest, it`s *somewhere* in the the archives of the HTK...  

BS.

Nice documentation Crumpp, as always.

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp

You seem to be very selective in your facts Gripen.

I'm claiming very little in this thread. I'm merely pointing out that people seem to do unfounded claims against the data they don't like.

The 109 myths article contains several examples how the authors make claims about the tests they have not even read.

And you are making similar claims; as an example you have claimed that tested Fw 190s were crashed planes or that there was no adjustable cooling gills in the tested planes.

No one has claimed here that the A4/U8 is the same as A4 but if the racks are removed, it's quite close. As an example the tested top speed for the EB-104 (originally G-3) at FTH is according to report 415mph (668km/h) and that is about 50km/h more than the speed of the Focke Wulf  tested Fw 190A-8 (WNr. 733705) at same power setting (with ETC 501 and unknown cooling fan).

Originally posted by BlauK


I suppose the point gripen was trying to make in the 109 issue was to always go after the original sources, but then in the 190 issue some book is much better than the original sources.

So what's your opinion; should I believe  the report on that particular plane (PE882) and pictures showing the adjustable cooling gills. Or should I believe the parts list from Focke Wulf which gives no such option?

Originally posted by Kurfürst


LOL... like I`d say, wanna see my evidence behind my claims? Sure, I will give you. Take a plane, come here in Budapest, it`s *somewhere* in the the archives of the HTK...

Maybe I'll come one day, haven't been in Budapest since early nineties. BTW someone seem to have double standars here, I have at least claimed where to find the stuff.

gripen

[Crumpp]

Focke Wulf tested Fw 190A-8 (WNr. 733705) at same power setting (with ETC 501 and unknown cooling fan).

Yep, Gripen.

Well WNr. 1288, Kennz. SS+GL, using Motor Nr. 305573 was recorded at 585Kph on the deck during endurance trials for Erhöhten Notleistung.  Do you think that should be held up as service FW190A8 performance?  It is about as relevant as WNr 733705.

During the service trials, the FW190A8 hit 578 kph on the deck clean (normal finish) and 565kph with ETC501 fitted and normal finish.

As you can see, a wide variation in performance can be found depending on set of the aircraft.  If you recall the propeller test flights:




As for the FW-190G1, please find a WerkNummer for a single FW-190G1.

Nil: Re-designated FW 190 A-4/U8s (in 1943/1944), no new build aircraft

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/werkn.htm

Or should I believe the parts list from Focke Wulf which gives no such option?

Gripen what you seem to have trouble comprehending is that Focke Wulf documentation points to a KB special construction was done and not a serial production item.  It is a fact that a serial production part would be listed and entered into the supply system.

All the best,

Crumpp

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp

Well WNr. 1288, Kennz. SS+GL, using Motor Nr. 305573 was recorded at 585Kph on the deck during endurance trials for Erhöhten Notleistung.  Do you think that should be held up as service FW190A8 performance?  It is about as relevant as WNr 733705.

During the service trials, the FW190A8 hit 578 kph on the deck clean (normal finish) and 565kph with ETC501 fitted and normal finish.

The sea speed value for the EB-104 was 340mph. Assuming the difference between 1,65ata and 1,42ata to be around 40km/h at sea level, that means that those A-8s and EB-104 were about equal.

Originally posted by Crumpp
As for the FW-190G1, please find a WerkNummer for a single FW-190G1.

I don't know what's the point here; the PM679 WNr. 5843 was, according to your source, a new built A4/U8 and it had adjustable cooling gills (picture can be found from Butler's book).

"ARW; 0145 805 - 0145 844 were FW 190 A-4/U8s"

The PE882 was from next production batch but Bookie does not give any details if this batch contains new built A4/U8s. The listing is incomplete anyway.

Originally posted by Crumpp

Gripen what you seem to have trouble comprehending is that Focke Wulf documentation points to a KB special construction was done and not a serial production item. It is a fact that a serial production part would be listed and entered into the supply system.

What you seem have trouble comprehending is that Focke Wulf documentation you have might be incomplete (the evidence point to that).

Please, take my advice and contact those persons who have studied the subject and stop the speculations.

gripen

[Crumpp]

I don't know what's the point here;

My point is to find a Werknummer for an FW-190G1, Gripen.

They do not exist because there were no new constructions.  When the type was redesignated, the "G1" was not longer in production.

All FW190A4/U8's are FW-190G1's and were just renamed.

What you seem have trouble comprehending is that Focke Wulf documentation you have might be incomplete (the evidence point to that).

Feel free to present the evidence.  

The sea speed value for the EB-104 was 340mph. Assuming the difference between 1,65ata and 1,42ata to be around 40km/h at sea level, that means that those A-8s and EB-104 were about equal.

Been covered Gripen.  Read my last post.

All the best,

Crumpp

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp
My point is to find a Werknummer for an FW-190G1, Gripen.

I don't see your point, the PE882 and PM679 were A4/U8s and the PM679 was according to your source new built (and probably the PE882 too because it was from later batch).

If you are interested about WNr.s of the G-1, you should do the search yourself. I don't see any connection to this discussion.

Originally posted by Crumpp
All FW190A4/U8's are FW-190G1's and were just renamed.

Not according to Baugher and actually your source says that the PM679 was a new built A4/U8, so it can't be a G-1 because, according to your source, there was no new built G-1s.

Originally posted by Crumpp
Feel free to present the evidence.  

The picture of the PM679 can be found from "War Prizes" by Phil Butler, p. 18.

Originally posted by Crumpp
Been covered Gripen.  Read my last post.

So we have a consensus that the EB-104 had quite realistic performance.

gripen

[Crumpp]

So we have a consensus that the EB-104 had quite realistic performance.

Yes it exhibits the classic G series performance when stripped and is within percentage tolerances.



All the best,

Crumpp

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Yes for an FW-190G1 it exhibits the classic performance.

So should I assume that the G-1 and the A-8 had quite similar performance with 1,42ata 2700rpm?

gripen

[Crumpp]

So should I assume that the G-1 and the A-8 had quite similar performance with 1,42ata 2700rpm?

Not a service FW-190A8.  An FW-190A is not an FW-190G.

The flight test show an FW-190A8 doing 558 kph at 1.42ata @ 2700U/min clean with full wing armament.

All the best,

Crumpp

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Not a service FW-190A8.  An FW-190A is not an FW-190G.

Well, is the sealevel speed around 540-550km/h a good assumption for an average A-8 in clean condition with 1,42ata 2700rpm?

gripen

[Crumpp]

Well, is the sealevel speed around 540-550km/h a good assumption for an average A-8 in clean condition with 1,42ata 2700rpm?

Most certainly bottom of the scale.

As I posted, Focke Wulf publishes 558kph for 4 MG151 and 555kph for Mk108's.  Data is extrapolated from flight testing of several aircraft.  It represents the numbers Focke Wulf told the Luftwaffe it's aircraft could do.

540kph is within 4% of 558kph and very close with the difference being not worth arguing over.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

Just to update those following this thread:

I found a December 1943 Ersatzteilliste that lists the part numbers for the adjustable gills on the Pre-FW190A5 variants.

All the best,

Crumpp