Fixing heavy bombers

[Simaril]

Chop you do NOT need to hold the crosshairs on a ground object anymore -- that disappeared with the map click. Now the enitre calibration is tied to holding the Y down long enough to get an accurate read on airspeed, and then matching the true airspeed (E6B) to the calibrated one. If the two match at drop, you have laser guided accuracy. I strongly suspect that post calibration speed changes, rather than connection issues, accounts for difficulties with calibration accuracy.



Even though the current system is very easy and precise, I dont think the calibration mechanics should be changed. As others have aptly posted, Buffs give developing pilots a chance to do something successfully while their fighter skills progres up the very steep learning curve. I moved down that path, and buffs kept me in the game -- when otherwise I might have given up.


However, I strongly believe that the "easy mode" advantage bombers have woudl not suffer in the least from having realistic angle restrictions imposed.

 It is unreasonable -- and downright silly --  to be able to drop bombs through the top of your bomber, especially when the program requires you to have the bomb bay doors open before doing so!!

Journeymen aces high players would lose absolutely nothing if the B-17 was limited to a 30 degree drop angle, but that simple change woudl move AH from an arcade box bomber game to a simulation.



If interested in details, see my sig line.....
(and I'm about ready to post on the Lancaster's bomb bay)

[MadSquirrel]

Rod367th.  OK, so there were instances where low level buffs were used.  No problem.  Did they Dive Bomb?  Or just come in at low level?  What were there losses?  Did they repeat this as a standard or abandon it due to the losses incurred?

You can keep the low-level buffs.  Just like the Lancs that hit the sub pens.  But if you do, you have to give the bases multiple Flak Batteries of 88mm AA.  Plus multiple Flak Batteries of smaller AA.  

Did the Jimmy Stewart Video show Buffs looping over in formation after dive bombing and coming in again?  Just curious.

As for dive bombing being a Newbie thing, the main dive bombing buff drivers I see (we know who they are) are not new.  But lately, I have seen new players copying it.  Gee, why learn to do it right if I can up 3 buffs for one life and drop 40,000 lbs. of bombs on a stationary Ostwind and got a GV kill.  Yeah, he shot down two of my buffs, and put 5 Ostie rounds into my remaining buff, but I landed that 1 GV kill.  I am a Great Buff pilot.

Solution:  Bombs can only be dropped from the F6 position.  You have to Calibrate from the F6 position just prior to the drop.  No, dive, hop to F6 and start punching the button.  

Or, you can put in the 5 manable 88s at each base and field.  Or give me a "Formation of Ostwinds" for each life.

LOL, if HTC fixed the Buff Dive Bombing problem with the F6 fix, the whining would go on for months.  Just imagine if people had to learn to do it right.  

This fix would also cure the B-17s coming in with grass stains on their belly and popping up at the last moment to drop.  Of course giving us the German 88mm Flak would cure the whole thing.  (Wish List sorry.   )

LTARsqrl  <>  AKA: 40,000 LBS. Target  

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by Simaril
Chop you do NOT need to hold the crosshairs on a ground object anymore -- that disappeared with the map click. Now the enitre calibration is tied to holding the Y down long enough to get an accurate read on airspeed, and then matching the true airspeed (E6B) to the calibrated one. If the two match at drop, you have laser guided accuracy. I strongly suspect that post calibration speed changes, rather than connection issues, accounts for difficulties with calibration accuracy.



Even though the current system is very easy and precise, I dont think the calibration mechanics should be changed. As others have aptly posted, Buffs give developing pilots a chance to do something successfully while their fighter skills progres up the very steep learning curve. I moved down that path, and buffs kept me in the game -- when otherwise I might have given up.

Son of a gun.  My apologies Mugzeee.  I stand corrected.  I just went to the arena and verified for myself what Simaril just updated me on.  I’ve been holding Y down while using the joystick to hold the crosshairs steady.  You guys are right.  All you have to do is sit there and hold the Y key down and let it do its thing automatically.  Hmmm…..that is easy.  Perhaps a little too easy.  I was able to hit my targets in AH1 with a  little practice and it didn’t seem all that hard.  Manually calibrating for speed never seemed that hard to me.  Could be I just have a great connection, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

[Tilt]

I'm with the F6 lobby for level bombers.

see my link for my whole take re attackers and bombers and how attack perks could be used.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by MadSquirrel
You can keep the low-level buffs.  Just like the Lancs that hit the sub pens.  But if you do, you have to give the bases multiple Flak Batteries of 88mm AA.  Plus multiple Flak Batteries of smaller AA.  

Solution:  Bombs can only be dropped from the F6 position.  You have to Calibrate from the F6 position just prior to the drop.  No, dive, hop to F6 and start punching the button.  

Or, you can put in the 5 manable 88s at each base and field.  Or give me a "Formation of Ostwinds" for each life.

LOL, if HTC fixed the Buff Dive Bombing problem with the F6 fix, the whining would go on for months.  Just imagine if people had to learn to do it right.  

This fix would also cure the B-17s coming in with grass stains on their belly and popping up at the last moment to drop.  Of course giving us the German 88mm Flak would cure the whole thing.  (Wish List sorry.   )

LTARsqrl  <>  AKA: 40,000 LBS. Target  

If you put in those 88mm flak guns, isn't that going to kill a lot of fighter pilots as well?  I can't imagine that would be too popular.

I support having to drop bombs from the F6 position.  Having to calibrate just before we drop?  No way.  Often we have to be on guns that close to base.  When you go to F6 the plane goes into automatic level flight.  I would think that'd ruin your aim with the bombs anyway.  I can't say for sure on that since I've never used a heavy that way and I never will.  It's an inferior way to use the heavy bombers.  It's not as effective as doing the correct way.

[MadSquirrel]

I understand the fighter on you six situation as far as calibrating before drop.  But if you are in your guns, how do you know when you should drop anyway?  You still need to be in your bombsight for a few seconds anyway before you drop.  And calibration only needs to be 2 seconds.  Longer for more accurate.  If you did a good calibration prior to that, a 2 second calibration would let you know if it were good.


As for the 88 flaks, yes, it would kill fighters.  But then porking would be a tad bit harder too, now wouldn't it?  I look at the 88s like the 5"er on CVs.  People don't complain as much about them now do they?  You just have to work harder to kill/Pork a CV.


LTARsqrl  <>

[rod367th]

Yes USA  decided low level in roamina was wtg after losing over ithnk it was 700  bombers 1 night. at hi alt.  88's had harder time hitting low bombers then high flying st8 bombers.




  Sure chagne bomber to f6 only mode put vh base back to 1 hanger. But harden Troops and ammo so 1 lone a6m can't take out all 3 before any other fix.   HTC  says 1 guy should make others play their way  thats why harden HQ. But now a lone 190 pilot or la7 can kill ord troops multi bases.



 If Men didn't know to duck when fighter comes to base   war wouldv'e been 30 days not 6 years........................ .........

[MadSquirrel]

That raid you refer to was "Operation Tidal Wave" on the oil fields at Ploesti.

Taken from Flight Journal: Ploesti B-24: Utah Man
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200404/ai_n9383170

Within days, the idle plant was brought on line to replace lost production, and the Allies thought it would be impractical to try repeating such a costly mission. Loss rates of more than 30 percent could not be borne. Unescorted long-range, low-level attacks by heavy bombers against defended targets disappeared from the options open to the USAAF, never to return.

Rod367th, you said:

Yes USA decided low level in roamina was wtg after losing over ithnk it was 700 bombers 1 night. at hi alt. 88's had harder time hitting low bombers then high flying st8 bombers.

I think you ment was NOT the wtg.

LTARsqrl  <>

[Toad]

Originally posted by rod367th
Yes USA  decided low level in roamina was wtg after losing over ithnk it was 700  bombers 1 night. at hi alt.  88's had harder time hitting low bombers then high flying st8 bombers.
 

I would ask you to document ANY loss of 700 bombers in 1 night by either the USAAF or the RAF. Or any other WW2 Air Force for that matter.

The "Black Thursday" raid on Schwienfurt was, IIRC, the worst day for losses in the 8th AF.

In the final tally, Headquarters 8th Air Force reported that 251 B-17s had departed on the mission, 60 had failed to return, 5 had crashed in England because of battle damage, 12 had to be scrapped because of crash landings or battle damage, and 121 had to be repaired before being flown again. Even worse, 600 men were lost over enemy territory, and there were 5 dead and 43 wounded flyers in the B-17s that did return.

[BlueJ1]

Low level tactics were used in the Aleutian islands after the Japanese invaded. B17s and B-24s were used at low alts because of poor weather conditions at high alt alot of the time.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by MadSquirrel
I understand the fighter on you six situation as far as calibrating before drop.  But if you are in your guns, how do you know when you should drop anyway?  You still need to be in your bombsight for a few seconds anyway before you drop.  And calibration only needs to be 2 seconds.  Longer for more accurate.  If you did a good calibration prior to that, a 2 second calibration would let you know if it were good.


As for the 88 flaks, yes, it would kill fighters.  But then porking would be a tad bit harder too, now wouldn't it?  I look at the 88s like the 5"er on CVs.  People don't complain as much about them now do they?  You just have to work harder to kill/Pork a CV.

Because when in our guns external view we can see our approximate angle to the target and jump into the F6 position to drop bombs using the sight.  I've done this many times with fighter aircraft that are waiting to jump me when they think I'll be off guns and on the sight.  There isn't time to calibrate just before a drop.  They say 2 seconds is the minimum.  It's not the minimum for a good drop, just a sloppy one.  I'd much prefer the harder sight calibrating method of AH1 than have what you're suggesting.  It isn't needed and would be a royal pain.  Only being able to drop from F6 should solve the problem effectively and simply.

As for the 88's...yes it would make it harder for fighters to pork fields....also harder for them to vulch, now wouldn't it.  Also harder to cap a field and if town placement isn't extended away from base, it'll make landing troops difficult, now wouldn't it.  The reason people, bombers at least, don't complain about the 5" guns on cv's is because they're all lined up so that when we bomb the cv we get them anyway.  I bomb strats on a field from 14K.  Your 88mm's would pose me a problem, now wouldn't they.  I do, as a matter of fact, get hit by somebody on those cv 5" guns even when I'm at 10K and somewhat above.

[MadSquirrel]

ChopSaw:

Because when in our guns external view we can see our approximate angle to the target and jump into the F6 position to drop bombs using the sight. I've done this many times with fighter aircraft that are waiting to jump me when they think I'll be off guns and on the sight. There isn't time to calibrate just before a drop. They say 2 seconds is the minimum. It's not the minimum for a good drop, just a sloppy one. I'd much prefer the harder sight calibrating method of AH1 than have what you're suggesting. It isn't needed and would be a royal pain. Only being able to drop from F6 should solve the problem effectively and simply.

So if you’re that exact, why even go to the F6 view?  As far as 2 seconds minimum, it can be accurate.  If you do a good calibration before, you would have a good calibration with the 2 seconds also.  Try it sometime.  It works well.  The only variable, if you will notice, is the altitude and speed.  If your altitude remains the same and the 2-second calibration is the same, bingo.

ChopSaw:

As for the 88's...yes it would make it harder for fighters to pork fields....also harder for them to vulch, now wouldn't it. Also harder to cap a field and if town placement isn't extended away from base, it'll make landing troops difficult, now wouldn't it.

So you’re looking to be able to bomb with impunity?  To vulch with impunity?  How long does it take a coordinated strike to take down the Ack at a base?  I never said to make the Flak 88s bullet proof.

Yes, it would make all those things more difficult.  It would take more teamwork to capture a base.  One lone wolf couldn't destroy one entire side’s ability to advance the battlefront.

LTARsqrl  <>

[louman]

I say make a spit factory that will knock out spit16's.....put some killer ack at that factory so you cant bomb it at low alt......If you build it they will come....even fighter jocks will be in buffs trying to knock out those stinking 16's!:aok

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by louman
I say make a spit factory that will knock out spit16's.....

It's been done in another game. It seems some old features from other games will stay archived in those games. Btw, it WAS fun to knock out airplane factories and thereby limit planesets available to that country for a period of time (akin to taking down radar in a country in AH). It actually gave people something to strive for iso just having a loss of planes as a result of your side having one too many players flying. In fact, if we were beiing overwhelmed a mission would be planned to go knock out some factories and even the odds. These missions were a part of that particular MA (not unlike ours) and not just a scenario. There was no "leveling of planesets" for numbers. Your undermanned country got up and leveled the field.

It was also mentioned that level bombing use of the nordon bombsight required doing x, y and z to get a decent drop on target. What many people fail to realize is until radar bombing came along the odds of effectively, consistantly hitting the target were pretty low. Yet AH provides a high level of success with the miminum of fuss.

I would have thought it was enough to take away the requirement to accurately aim at a target using some sort of "simulated" sophistication would have been enough to make any would be buff muffin (B-52's were called that, btw) a happy camper yet still allow for a little bit of realism (albeit much more realistic with a few drinks in you). When dive bombing level bombers became an allowable form of fun it merely turned the realism of bombing into an arcade game. But, it does hold the attention of the latch key kiddies!!!

What's more amazing is we spend an inordinate amount of time in the TA showing folks the realism imparted in the flight models of the various fighters and how to use them effectively so the game is more enjoyable, only to have the arcade part of it to show up in bombing.  Can you say "Ah maze zing?"

Damned Ren
The Damned Air Group

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by MadSquirrel
ChopSaw:
 

So if you’re that exact, why even go to the F6 view?  As far as 2 seconds minimum, it can be accurate.  If you do a good calibration before, you would have a good calibration with the 2 seconds also.  Try it sometime.  It works well.  The only variable, if you will notice, is the altitude and speed.  If your altitude remains the same and the 2-second calibration is the same, bingo.

ChopSaw:


So you’re looking to be able to bomb with impunity?  To vulch with impunity?  How long does it take a coordinated strike to take down the Ack at a base?  I never said to make the Flak 88s bullet proof.

Yes, it would make all those things more difficult.  It would take more teamwork to capture a base.  One lone wolf couldn't destroy one entire side’s ability to advance the battlefront.

LTARsqrl  <>

I still find your reasoning flawed in this.  I actually jump back and forth between guns and the F6 sight.  In this fashion I constantly update my estimate of when I need to be on the bomb sight.  I'm also jumping between the two to make sure I'm lined up correctly to hit the targets I desire.

Being able to release bombs from the F6 position only is the fix we need.  This last minute calibration suggestion is an encumbrance that is not necessary and I’m sure would interest fighter aircraft looking to kill me a great deal.  Even the way things are, there are guys that sit just beyond gun range trying to estimate when I’m going to be on the sight so they can rip in and destroy my run and a bomber or two.

Am I looking to bomb with impunity?  Yes.  If being at 14K and not wanting to get shot by a manned ground gun is impunity, then yes.  The only thing that should be able to reach me is a fighter or the occasional lucky hit by the puffy ack.  One “lone wolf” hasn’t got a chance to stop the advance on a front.  Invest some time and come up and get me.  It isn’t that hard.  People do it all the time.  I invest 15 to 20 minutes to get to altitude and speed not to mention the time to target once that’s all settled.  Of course it would be a lot easier if you could do it by just hopping into a gun on the ground and pounding away.  Is that perhaps what you had in mind?

Truthfully?  I think your 88mm flak would be a larger pain for fighter aircraft than my bombers, but I’m not going to applaud their appearance if it happens.  Something I find very unlikely.