An alternative to "Kill shooter"

[Furball]

i think you should hit the people where it hurts... THEIR RANK!

for each round landed on a friendly, you lose 5 places in rank.

each bomb, 100 places

each rocket, 50 places

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by Clifra Jones
I did mention that is has changed now. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
It is the shooters responsibility to make sure it is clear to shoot!

 I read it, but didn't catch the meaning right away. Noted.

[TrueKill]

Originally posted by Furball
i think you should hit the people where it hurts... THEIR RANK!

for each round landed on a friendly, you lose 5 places in rank.

each bomb, 100 places

each rocket, 50 places

bombs and rockets dont kill friendlys. I dont like the whole "killshooter" thing a few weeks ago I was in an IL2 and was shooting a panzer and took his turret out. Then some guy comes along in a spit9 let me say this again a fricking spit9 and starts strafing the panzer. What is a spit9 with 20mms and 50cals going to do to a tank? So I go back trying to kill the panzer cuz im not going to disable a tank and let some tard come and get the kill jsut cuz he put a few bullets in him. While going in for a run the guy comes in and gets in my gunsite and I stop firing but a few rounds hit him and I lose engine oil and rudder. And Iv heard someone say "well you need to work on your SA." why should I have to watch someone else while Im flying thats like someone whineing about not getting a ch6. I think that if you shoot a friendly the bullets dont even hit the guy they just pass right through him like hes not even there. Why should I pay caz some guy flew infront of me while Im shooting.

[Kweassa]

There is an alternative to the Killshooter. Like Tails pointed out, AW's Persona Non Grata system worked very well. If you killed two friendlies within a 24 hour period you were unable to up any plane with any type of ordinance for 24 hours. An additional 24 hour penalty was tacked on for additional kills beyond the 2nd. You were still able to take off in any plane you wanted but you just couldn't carry any ammo or ordnance.

But this is only a deterent to those that intend to grief other players and it worked very well. Not many found the fun in shooting down friendlies in AW if it meant you were basically forced to become a Gooney driver afterwards.

And on the other hand, killshooter does work how it's intended and HiTech unfortunately has ruled any possibility of the PNG system as he didn't like the system. Wish though he would rethink his position.

 It could work.

 However, it does not address the possibility that a genuine mistake can happen twice, within a period of 24 hours. Imagine this scenario;

 There are 3~4 friendlies chasing after one enemy plane. I try to keep my cool, watch my shooting. I think it's safe to open fire.. but at that moment, a friendly jumps in the way. I'm in a cannon-armed plane, and my burst damages a friendly plane critically.

 Now, in this kind of situation, the kill shooter will remove myself from the fight. It is a frustrating experience, but since techincally I did make the mistake, despite the reckless behavior of the friendly pilot who jumped in front of me, I swallow my anger and just up another plane. Perhaps, I'll have a talk with the guy who jumped in front of me.

- Hey, I just got KS'd from you.
- Did I cause that? Gee, sorry.
- That's okay. Technically I did shoot you.
  Let's both try to be more careful next time.
- Okay. Sorry, man.
- No problem.

 But sometimes, bad luck will make the worst happen. I may get KS'd twice in the same day.

 Now, according to the persona non grata, the mistakes I made twice, unintentional and accidental, will take away my ability to fly and fight for 24 hours.

 Frankly, I think the KS better addresses all types of situations concerning friendly fire incidents. Mistakes are immediately reprimanded by taking the guy who shot at a friendly out of the fight, but in case of unintentional and truly accidental happenings, the penalty is not so severe as to totally take away my game for 24 hours.

 Persona non grata seems like a very powerful system, and even more so strict than the KS. But sometimes, that can be an overkill to truly unintentional accidents. No doubt it'll make people think twice, thrice, and even four times before shooting around frdly planes... but still mistakes and accidents do happen.

[bustr]

Unlike in real life, yes a freindly can pop up in front of you and catch your last few rounds. Die, and there are no witnesses except for maybe that tank driver who is thanking you for removing half of his problem. Then you can fly away, survive the war, and no one during your whole life will ever know.

It seems to me HiTech in this one place has made the decision that if you delt it wrong, you pay for it now. I have only killshootered once in this game. That was enough for me. I also apologiesed to the player I shot. Didn't matter to me he suddenly poped up into my bullet stream. I knew he was there.

I guess my real life interest in firearms and shooting has clouded my judgement and I forget this is just a game.

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by TrueKill
bombs and rockets dont kill friendlys. I dont like the whole "killshooter" thing a few weeks ago I was in an IL2 and was shooting a panzer and took his turret out. Then some guy comes along in a spit9 let me say this again a fricking spit9 and starts strafing the panzer. What is a spit9 with 20mms and 50cals going to do to a tank? So I go back trying to kill the panzer cuz im not going to disable a tank and let some tard come and get the kill jsut cuz he put a few bullets in him. While going in for a run the guy comes in and gets in my gunsite and I stop firing but a few rounds hit him and I lose engine oil and rudder. And Iv heard someone say "well you need to work on your SA." why should I have to watch someone else while Im flying thats like someone whineing about not getting a ch6. I think that if you shoot a friendly the bullets dont even hit the guy they just pass right through him like hes not even there. Why should I pay caz some guy flew infront of me while Im shooting.

(in my best Fred Rogers voice)

Now children, remember, It is the shooter responsibility to make sure it is clear to fire

[Elfie]

It never ceases to amaze me how people love to blame the kill shooter on the other guy diving in.
If the plane is above you and he is diving in, he can't even see you.



Thats not always true. I recall a time when I got kill shootered by someone who dove into my fight after watching the fight for about a minute. He knew I was there, and timed his dive perfectly. I was in a Hurri 2C and when that tard dove into my tracers I had no chance of survival.

It's realy simple.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire. No if's, no ands, no buts.


I disagree with that, it's EVERYONE's responsibility to make sure that 1) they are clear to fire, 2) that they arent flying in front of someone else's line of fire.

HiTech *invented* Kill shooter, it isnt going away ever since it is *his baby*. I personally believe AirWarriors system of bullets not damaging friendlies is the best option out there. Game designer has stated he likes his system and it isnt going to change.

[TrueKill]

Originally posted by Clifra Jones
(in my best Fred Rogers voice)

Now children, remember, It is the shooter responsibility to make sure it is clear to fire

No its not its the other guys responsibility to watch where hes flying. Its not like I made the guy fly into my bullets. If someone has to get damage why not both planes.

[DropW]

Hi all. Killshooter sure can be a pain sometimes. I agree that it is very difficult not to kill oneself when there are 3 friendlies flying within 10 feet of you shooting at same plane. If I'm not in front of the pack, I don't fire. Learned my lesson on that a long time ago. What really sucks about kill shooter though is not that situation just described. The real pain is when an enemy is right on your friendly's 6 and you go to shoot the enemy plane to clear your friend. Some of them bullets end up passing the enemy and hit friendly, then I go down. That really sucks. Here I am doing my best to clear a friend and I die from my own bullets lol.

Or another one is... you are on an enemy 6, and a friendly is coming in to HO the enemy. If we are in a turn, you most likely don't see the friendly coming in to do a HO... we both fire, and one of us(if not both) hit each other and the enemy. Before you know it... we all 3 are down in a matter of seconds. I hate that situation! lol.

Another situation that really bites is when you go to protect bombers. You shoot at the enemy and a few of those bullets go astray. The bullets end up hittin one of the three big buffs up ahead and you fall to pieces. Yeah, I really do not like the kill shooter thing, but I will still fly and just try to be as careful as I can when shooting. Takes major concentration sometimes hehe.

 I wouldn't mind there being a system where friendly fire does nothing or maybe just a small fraction of the damage that it has right now. Whatever the decision.... I will still fly and kill . -DropW

[Oleg]

This theme will never die...

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by TrueKill
No its not its the other guys responsibility to watch where hes flying. Its not like I made the guy fly into my bullets. If someone has to get damage why not both planes.

Because the other guy did not fire, you did. If kill shooter is a consistant problem for someone then they are obviously doing something wrong! They are firing when it is not clear.

Does it happen to all of us? Sure does.

Example: I got kill shot last nite. Chasing an F4U, He dove, I was on his 6, Just as I open fire a friendly pulls up below him for a forward quarter shot (not a HO because the f4u did not have a guns solution on him), His shots went below the f4u, mine went above but right into the friendlies canopy, BAM i'm dead. Now who's fault is it? Actually we were both wrong, because it was not clear to fire for either of us. He missed me and I hit him. That's just the way it is.

This is a dead discussion anyways because it ain't gonna change. Knowing that then:

It's the shooter responsibility to make sure it's clear to fire!

Do we need Bart Simpson and his black board?

[hubsonfire]

I've been on both sides of KS, and I will intentionally try to fly into the tracers of anyone firing at a con from behind me (yeah, I know what I am, save your breath). I have also been KS in all of the situations described above. It would never ever have happened no matter what, under any circumstances, if I hadn't pulled the trigger. It doesn't matter who misses, moves, merges, warps, dives in, etc, if no one pulls the trigger. This leads me to one single conclusion.

It's the shooter responsibility to make sure it's clear to fire!

Clif, you enjoying this as much as I am?

[TrueKill]

Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Actually we were both wrong, because it was not clear to fire for either of us. He missed me and I hit him. That's just the way it is.

Then if both were wrong why not both get damage? Cuz the other guy flew into your bullets after you shot? It doesnt seem right to me.

[DREDIOCK]

Leave kill shooter alone.
Try less spray & praying and gun dicipline instead and you will have more ammo to kill even more badguy planes and will get killshot less

I get people that fly in front of me when Im shooting all the time and manage to rarely get a killshooter. And in fact I've never ever, not even once gotten a killshooter from someone diving in front of me.

Why? because I usually fire in short bursts and can see the other plane entering my screen and have enough sense to not pull the trigger on the next shot.

Also I have my sound settings set so that while I can hear my engine just fine I can also hear the engines of other planes next to me. After all. they usually have to be next to me before they can suddenly pop up right in front of me. And anything I cant hear is far enough away from me that I can see it in advance of it popping up..or down..or from the sides in front of me.

the only time Ive gotten killshooter s when I've been on the 6 of a plane who was on the 6 of a bomber formation and I hit the bombers. Also once I got a killshooter when I was on the 6 of a plane and a friendly was comming from the opposite direction and tried to HO the plane I was in on and shooting at.

In each case.. oh well watermelon happens. But certainly not often enough to whine about.

Keys to not getting killshot.

1
Fire in short bursts ratatattat
and not                   ratatatatatatatatatatatatatat atatatatatatatat
For gods sake know when to stop shooting. Dont just hold down the trigger on the off chance one of those hundreds of rounds might ping him.
You can accomplish the same thing with short bursts and have alot more ammo to show for it left over when your done

2
SA know whats around you both enemy and friendly and you will have less unpleasent surprises
Good SA INCLUDES Knowing not just where the enemy is. but friendly as well

3
Be patient with your shots. Just because he's in front of you doesnt mean you have a shot


And Hubs. I bet I can get a kill over yor shoulder without hitting you no matter how hard you try to get hit.

Dont play with your food and I wont steal your kill



Note. I usually dont try to steal kills by over the shoulder shooting unless the other guy cant seem to get a firing solution.

I typically try to let the guy in front get the shot first. But I see if him screwing it up too much and I have a shot I'll take it.

[Tilt]

Actually I think KS is pretty good and probably the best of those tried to date.............

back to gun jamming tho I think I would like a nice big bubble round my AC and if any friendly tries to fire thru it I would like his guns jammed...........no time limitation.......... totally jammed he has to RTB to get em fixed

Yup I would like that and I would like it ontop of KS as well...........

So if his bullets hit me he gets damaged and gunless..........

should cut back daisy chains and shoulder shooting a bit more:p