Time to scrape off the old fingerprints...

[gavor]

First of all these are rights, not privileges.[/QB]

To be slightly confusing, I think it is a little of both. I believe that it's the right of every man to be free(women included there). But its a bit of a privilege as well. If you're bad you should be caught and punished and your privileges taken away.

I understand that you're born to this way of thinking and that nothing i say will change your mind, its just a bit different here. Bit more laid back. Bit more...'who gives a *&#&'.  . I've had enough arguing now, unless you have a good point that I may have missed.

[easymo]

No.  They are rights, guaranteed Americans under our constitution. Not negotiable.

  Why do you think we get so touchy when someone messes with us?

[Wotan]

theres no such thing as freedom.

what governments give is liberty.

liberty is the licensing of freedom violate the license the government will revoke it.

some nations have liberal license requirements other much more stringent.

that said its up to the people to give their consent to any government that would impose any such license requirements.

This is true under ameritocracy or facism or communisn or monarchy.

All governments rule by consent whether that consent is given through the ballet box or at the end of a gun or through submission.

Even an "oppressed" people give their consent to oppression by not resisting it.

The fact is no matter how tough you make the law if no one follows it is useless.

I know a few folks who distrust this government so much  that they have had kids with midwives and "home scool" them and belong to "medical collectives". They have never paid taxes or had a ssn or DL. They have more guns then I have socks. They barter everything mostly labor to get what they need.

Nothing this government could do short of killing umm will change that.

If dont wanna turn over your dna finger prints etc then dont. What are they gonna do kill ya?

[gavor]

<makes crazy motion>

i guess there are probably people like that here too. we just dont have a constitution to say its ok.

why cant everyone just drink beer and be friends  

thanks for the interesting discussion.

[easymo]

When our Marines attacked the island of Terawa (spelling) in WW2.  The Japanese were determined to fight to the last man.  They very nearly did. They lost 5000 men.  Only a handful were wounded so badly that they had no choice but capture.  They asked one of these men if the Japanese ever got discouraged during the battle. He said. "Only when we saw that the dieing Marines kept crawling towards us".

  We are not laid back when it comes to this piece of paper.  We take it VERY seriously.

[streakeagle]

There is such a thing as freedom. Every day when I wake up I am free to take any course of action I want to (as is each person throughout the world). Of course there are some paths which have what I would consider unacceptable consequences. In some countries, most paths other than blind obedience have unacceptable consequences. To say the government licenses that freedom is poppycock. They can only control the consequences for acting freely.

The difference between a free country and an oppressed one is the willingness of the majority of its population to fight to the death to protect their freedom. If my government ever crosses the boundaries set by my own conscience which are generally coincident with the U.S. Constitution, then I will do as my forefathers and resist my government. Governments in general prefer that their citizens not be armed principally for that reason. Communist countries did not ban shotguns and hunting rifles to protect animals or prevent crime, they did it to protect their power. A handful of people with rifles and ammunition can do a lot more damage than several thousand people with pitchforks. Even against a government that has tanks and aircraft. If someone doesn't feel the need to own a gun, fine don't buy one. But why should I give up my right to bear arms because of your beliefs?

The number of people who feel as I do is steadily shrinking. The right to bear arms will probably be superceded in the name of protecting us from ourselves. I will react to any ban on my firearms as if I lost freedom of speech since they are both cornerstones of the Constitution I swore to defend with my life.

What did the people of countries who gave up their right to bear arms lose? One more legitimate free choice they used to be able to make without being penalized by the government. If you don't mind your government making all the major decisions of your life for you, that is your choice. It is not mine.

As for cameras monitoring people continously looking for criminals: we have them hear in Tampa. The city spent millions of dollars installing this system. After nearly a full year of operation, they have not caught one criminal with it. What a waste of resources.

The idea of the government watching your every move used to be considered a crime, now everyone just shrugs it off. It is funny how attitudes change with time and technology.

[Raubvogel]

I guess that after a decade or so in the military I don't see things the same as the average American. My movements, etc are already tracked. I am not free to live where I want or work at whatever job I want or go where I want when I want. I believe in freedom as much or more than the next guy, but there is more to freedom than being able to keep assault weapons in your backyard bunker. Technology is coming, like it or not. The world is getting smaller and smaller everyday. We need to do what we have to to protect our country and population. America is about opportunity and equality, not guns. Just my 2 cents.

[straffo]

1-70-08-75-115-076

now I'm scared  

[SOB]

Your SS# wasn't intended to be used as a form of ID, but that's what it's become.  If you wanna spend the time fighting it every time you're asked to supply it more power to you.  As far as I'm concerned tho', I give it out all the time...too much of a hassle not to.

Also, I fail to see how taking guns away from legal citizens makes them safer.  You will never totally eliminate guns in the US, even if you take them from law abiding citizens.


SOB

[AKSWulfe]

When I first got my driver's license in Washington, DC, they used my SSN as my driver license ID#. Made it easy to remember to give to the cops if I didn't have my license actually on me. ;-)

Since my fingerprints are already on a file, somewhere, someplace, it matters not to me if they take my fingerprints....

but what good does DNA do?

You can't just leave DNA lying around, can you? It benefits only the FBI investigating a very specific group of cases, in which the perpetrators constitute less than 10% of the American people.

So, why do they need my DNA?

EDIT: and that whole deal with guns and gun control, you would think that making guns illegal and not allowing anyone to sell them would make them disappear and crimes would drop significantly..... of course you would think the same thing about drugs too, and we all know that is just some false assumptions.
-SW

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]

[gavor]

I think you sum up my point nicely Raubvogel.

 

You can't just leave DNA lying around, can you?  

Er, of course you can. If a piece of your skin or a hair falls on the ground you just left your DNA behind and you can be nailed with it.


 

and that whole deal with guns and gun control, you would think that making guns illegal and not allowing anyone to sell them would make them disappear and crimes would drop significantly..... of course you would think the same thing about drugs too, and we all know that is just some false assumptions.

Well, guns are still sold here but you have to have a very good reason to have one and do a proper course(over several weeks) to get a license. So for all intents and purposes they are banned from the everyday man. In regards to drugs, a lot of heroin(Australias biggest problem) has been siezed lately and theres a big shortage for users. So i'd say that policy works ok. Of course, now they all use speed and ecstasy more  .

G