Author Topic: rams?? (Read 2075 times)

SuperDud · « **Reply #30 on:** August 29, 2005, 10:21:05 AM »

Yup, I find I either take catastrophic damage or none in a HO ram. If I hit a guy and he doesn't see it, I die...and vice versa. Just one of the quirks of the game.

Karnak · « **Reply #31 on:** August 29, 2005, 10:54:39 AM »

There seems to be some misunderstandings about lag and its effects. It does not mean that he sees the same thing you do, just a quarter to half a second later. It means that he sees a slightly different thing the whole time. What was a ram on your end may have been a miss by 150ft on his end, due to lag having the aircraft in slightly different places. That is the normal version of a ram in AH.

Even in the straight head on collision he may have jinked at the last moment on his FE and missed by mere feet, but on yours there was a collision, you go down and he takes no damage.

FiLtH · « **Reply #32 on:** August 29, 2005, 11:08:06 AM »

Personally Ive suffered countless prop to prop collisions. Not the glancing type but prop to prop collisions, other to die and ask guys around if the other guy died too, only to hear no he's fine.

A prop to prop collision is dead on. If the other guy didnt die, what is he seeing? Id imagine if it was moving his pov 10ft from what I am seeing, we would never be able to hit eachother with bullets during a fight.

Im going to do some collisions and film them and see what each of us see, and see what the results are.

Wondering if its something totally different being figured in. Such as only one death being computed during a collision...taking the faster plane as the victim perhaps.

Edbert1 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 29, 2005, 01:22:18 PM »

Not that we are voting or anything but I say if two planes collide they are both going down. In other words, if either side "sees" it both dying would be preferable than your wing-less/tail-less hulk crashing while the other guy flies away unscathed. Not that this will not result in a different set of whines but it will remove the concept of winning or losing a collision...sorta like a King Solomon solution

Karnak · « **Reply #34 on:** August 29, 2005, 01:54:08 PM »

FiLtH,

Well, there are several ways that could work. Remember, if he is a mere 15ft off plane, above or below, he'll miss on his FE. Guns can be aimed, so he can still hit you and miss with his fighter.

In the jink at the last moment, let's look at some numbers. If you are bothing going 300mph you have a 600mph closure rate. Say it takes .250 seconds for a change in his course to go from his system to the server to you. In that time you will get 220ft closer to eachother. So, before your FE even begins to register that he has started changing direction you have closed more than 200ft. That is a quarter second that was spent gaining separation on his FE, separation that is only now just begining to show on your FE. If the combined ping time is .5 seconds you would be looking at 440ft closed before your FE began to show his change.

What this also means is that it doesn't matter who's connection is slower or faster. If you have the fast connection and start to evade he won't see it until the data makes it's way through your fast connection and then to his slow connection. Bang, he collides in that time but you pulled clear and didn't. His slow connction killed him just as surely as it would kill you if he'd been the one to avoid and you stayed the course.

Edbert,

Think through the implications of that. You take off, fly 15 minutes to reach my base and, dweeb that I am, I take off, fly one minute and intentionally ram you killing us both. I lost one minute, you lost 15 minutes. You had no way to avoid the ram as it didn't even look like I was going to hit you on your FE. Bad, bad effects on gameplay.

Conversely, if both FEs have to see the ram they will all but disapear and I will now intentionally fly through your aircraft, firing my guns from a range that I cannot possibly miss at, killing you at no risk to myself.

Due to the limitations of light speed the current implimentation is the best possible. To do better we need FTL communication, and that is not something that is going to happen soon, if ever.

Simaril · « **Reply #35 on:** August 29, 2005, 02:07:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Truly amazing how everone looses 90% of collisions.

Funy thing is, what you see is what you get, it is just that the other guy didn't see the same thing. So there realy is not way to loose a collision, you just take damage from a collision 100 % of the time, just like the other guy does. Once you understand this, it will make it less frustating for you.

HiTech

Dont hit the plane you see.

Only you can prevent collisions on your FE.

The other guy wont take damage because odds are he didnt fly his plane into your virutal aircraft on his FE. If your computer sees you fly into his image you die. He didnt "win" the collision. He probably never saw it, so he didnt get damaged -- as far as his computer is concerned, nothing happened..

THEREFORE when you scream about a collision on 200 you're announcing to everyone that you cut it too close.

AND those times you get a kill where you'r enot quite sure how you did that much damage -- he jsut disappeared or popped or whatever -- he may not have bailed or disco'd. he may have hit you on his front end, and you "won" the collision you never saw.

hitech · « **Reply #36 on:** August 29, 2005, 02:09:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Edbert
Not that we are voting or anything but I say if two planes collide they are both going down. In other words, if either side "sees" it both dying would be preferable than your wing-less/tail-less hulk crashing while the other guy flies away unscathed. Not that this will not result in a different set of whines but it will remove the concept of winning or losing a collision...sorta like a King Solomon solution

To put what you are saying in other terms.

(This is exatly what you state you wish)

If you miss a headon fly by 50 ft because you jinked. You will still want to die, because the other player didn't jink.

Hitech

Edbert1 · « **Reply #37 on:** August 29, 2005, 03:20:39 PM »

Oh I know there'd be whines, no doubt about it, I don't think anyone can come up with a solution that wont have one side feeling cheated. Do you think the 50 foot description is accurate? I figured maybe 10 or so.

It just seems crazy that if I am trying to avoid what seems to be a head on and the other guy (apparently) is not (or sometimes you both break in the same direction), it really sucks to see his intact plane leave the scene while you are disintegrating.

Can you describe how the code determines who "wins" and who "loses" the current collision model without giving away too much?

hitech · « **Reply #38 on:** August 29, 2005, 03:34:23 PM »

Edbert: As has been described many a time, there is no who wins who looses. If you missed him , you do not collide, if he missed you he dosn't collide. If he touches you, he collides, if you touch him , you collide. If you both touch eachother you both collide, if you both miss eachother you both do not collide.

HiTech

TracerX · « **Reply #39 on:** August 29, 2005, 03:52:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Edbert
Oh I know there'd be whines, no doubt about it, I don't think anyone can come up with a solution that wont have one side feeling cheated. Do you think the 50 foot description is accurate? I figured maybe 10 or so.

It just seems crazy that if I am trying to avoid what seems to be a head on and the other guy (apparently) is not (or sometimes you both break in the same direction), it really sucks to see his intact plane leave the scene while you are disintegrating.

Can you describe how the code determines who "wins" and who "loses" the current collision model without giving away too much?

To make it easy, you always loose, and he may not have even been involved based on what he sees. It is rare that you both see a collision on your computers. To test this, get a buddy, and go to the dueling arena and try to run into each other without shooting. You might be suprised to notice how many times your buddy says, I missed, but you go spiraling down without your right wing because your at HO's.

killnu · « **Reply #40 on:** August 29, 2005, 04:11:57 PM »

this whole "if you miss him" thing...ive had guys dive on my 6, high rate of speed, miss the shot, fly thru my plane, i got down from collision? your right, i didnt miss him, i should moved out of the way of the plane screaming thru me, of course, i nvr would thing somebody would intentionally fly through, but like has been said, he didnt see it that way. guess thats why he missed the shot.

my brain hurts.

hitech · « **Reply #41 on:** August 29, 2005, 04:38:54 PM »

Quote

my brain hurts.

You should try smothing code in 3 time realities some time.

HiTech

Edbert1 · « **Reply #42 on:** August 29, 2005, 04:39:11 PM »

I guess we're not able to communicate then...two planes collide...but they don't...but one dies and the other doesn't...I hit him even though he wasn't really there and his ghost flew away...

That's fine though, it has been this way forever and I've just gotten used to "losing" 95+% of the collisions (I actually do not remember ever winning one). You can see from this thread that I am not the only one who thinks this is how it works, even after my years of MA activity.

C'est La Vie..C'est La Guerre

hitech · « **Reply #43 on:** August 29, 2005, 04:49:05 PM »

Quote

That's fine though, it has been this way forever and I've just gotten used to "losing" 95+% of the collisions (I actually do not remember ever winning one). You can see from this thread that I am not the only one who thinks this is how it works, even after my years of MA activity

That is because the only way to win a collision is not to collide.
Hence you never thought of it as a collision that you won.

GunnerCAF · « **Reply #44 on:** August 29, 2005, 04:59:36 PM »

Maybe if more people played a game like AW before the WWW existed, with lags of .8ms on a good day, they would understand this concept

Gunner