Author Topic: chairboy...ACLU  (Read 2261 times)

Offline Godzilla

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 285
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2005, 11:22:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Yep... I rest my case.

They didn't ask if the gun was useless to an Individual, just to a Militia.


What you are not understanding is that you actually lose on that argument.

Being the standard set is that if a gun is usefull to a militia, then it cannot be regulated and, in fact, those are the types of weapons which men are expected to own.

The feds lied and said that a sawed off shotrgun could not be usefull to a militia.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2005, 11:23:08 AM »
MT,

The SC in Miller clearly stated what individuals comprise the militia:

Quote
The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.


This statement, directly from the text of Miller, leaves no doubt as to the definition of Militia. "the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense". If you can march and shoot a gun, you're Militia if you choose to be.

Secondly, Miller stated the kind of arms these individuals had a right to bear:

Quote
And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.


The mistake in Miller is here:

Quote
"It is not within judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense."


The SC said that in 1939.

Approximately 20,000 Winchester Model 97 trench guns were supplied to the U.S. Army in World War I. 1918... surely the SC should have been aware of that. These guns were still in US Army issue at the time of the decision.

Further, the Winchester Model 12 trench and riot guns were again procured with a total of more than 80,000 guns ordered by the U.S. Government by 1945, more than any other combat shotgun of the time.

Ithaca Gun Co. produced a small number of Model 37 trench guns and a larger number of Model 37 riot guns and training guns.

Stevens Arms Co. delivered trench gun, riot gun and training versions of its Model 520-30 and 620A shotguns.

Remington Arms Co. turned out riot and training gun variants of its Model 11 autoloading shotgun, and Savage Arms Co. produced a number of the almost-identical Model 720 riot guns and training guns.

Clearly, in both WW 1 & 2, shotguns were "of the kind in common use at the time" by the military.

Short-barreled shotguns continue in use in the US military to this day.

So Miller was wrong on that point. That's why it is wrongly decided.

And today? All males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense still comprise the militia and this shotgun is being tested/used in Iraq:



In late 2003, the Army fielded a Lightweight Shotgun System to troops in Afghanistan, responding to an "urgent operational need" from 10th Mountain Division soldiers.

Able bodied males are the militia. Shotguns are in common use by out military.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2005, 11:29:04 AM »
MT... you "rest" your "case" on a loss then because the court affirmed that miller was part of the militia.   If miller was being tried because as part of the militia.... he owned an arm that was useless then...  it is simple logic that no other arm (useful to a militia or military) could be infringed on for him...

since miller was an individual and did not fit your defenition of a militia but was in fact a militiaman in the constitutional sense.... ie... "an able bodied man past the age of 16" then the case of individual rights is proven...

If miller did not belong to a militia then there was no point in trying him.  The court affirmed that he at least part of the militia but said that his arms were not necessary or useful for his role as a militiaman.

lazs

Offline Furball

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15781
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2005, 12:01:17 PM »
they have shotguns in counter-strike.
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2005, 12:30:33 PM »
Quote
I find it hypocritical in the extreme.


I agree with you 100 percent.

Quote
The basic premis of the Miller decision is that the Militia is the key. This has never been overturned nor has any law restricting the sale of guns ever been overturned on 2nd amendment grounds. Point being, people of good conscience can and do disagree on the 2nd and it's meaning.


I agree with that as well, though I obviously believe the Miller decision took a shallow view of the 2nd amendment that is not based on the reality of firearm ownership during our founding or the way militia was defined at that time.

As for the ACLU, they don’t provide a lot of documentation to prove their position. They also have a “neutral” stance here but fight tooth and nail over what could be considered minor (but IMO legitimate) issues where other rights are concerned, avoid an ongoing debate on the subject and avoid recent scholarship into a collective vs. individual right.

IMO, they just don’t like it, and want to ignore it. There are apparently a few “slipped” statements along those lines. I found them a year or so ago but can’t find them today. And, it is not an illogical position given the organization has far more of an East Coast academic foundation than, say, a Montana libertarian base.

Some ACLU critiques:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=307
http://www.old-yankee.com/aclu2.html

Some more of the recent scholarship on individual vs. collective and militia
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
http://www.guncite.com/journals/bk-ufire.html
http://www.guncite.com/journals/val-hal.html

A bunch from CATO
http://www.constitution.org/mil/embar2nd.htm

In simpler terms
http://www.outdoorsbest.com/kates061404/

The less than awe inspiring ACLU response
http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=9621&c=25

Including this red herring built on not understanding the differences (present and 18th century) between arms and ordinance. And also the practicalities outlined in the Federalist papers about the level attention, training and commitment you could reasonably expect from "the people." Just having a gun and a willingness to use it were seen as being about the limit, vs. training in your local armored brigade.

Quote
If indeed the Second Amendment provides an absolute, constitutional protection for the right to bear arms in order to preserve the power of the people to resist government tyranny, then it must allow individuals to possess bazookas, torpedoes, SCUD missiles and even nuclear warheads, for they, like handguns, rifles and M-16s, are arms.


And, of course, we recently went through much of that here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=148641&referrerid=5405

Charon
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 12:58:28 PM by Charon »

Offline Edbert

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2220
      • http://www.edbert.net
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2005, 12:42:48 PM »
I wish many conservatives were as adamant abolut protecting my 4th amendment rights as they are about the 2nd ammendment, just the same way I wish the ACLU was as adamant about protecting my 2nd amendment right as they are about the imaginary ones.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 12:45:17 PM by Edbert »

Offline Xargos

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4281
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2005, 12:53:37 PM »
Don't forget the ACLU was founded by a commie, and you know how commies fear people with guns.
Jeffery R."Xargos" Ward

"At least I have chicken." 
Member DFC

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2005, 12:55:21 PM »
Quote
I wish many conservatives were as adamant abolut protecting my 4th amendment rights as they are about the 2nd ammendment


Gets in the way of being "tough on crime..." After all, if you ain't guily, what are you afraid of? :)

Charon

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2005, 01:03:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
I wish many conservatives were as adamant abolut protecting my 4th amendment rights as they are about the 2nd ammendment, just the same way I wish the ACLU was as adamant about protecting my 2nd amendment right as they are about the imaginary ones.


Well... if there were no NRA, I might agree, but the NRA is covering the 2nd just fine without any help from the ACLU.
sand

Offline Edbert

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2220
      • http://www.edbert.net
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2005, 01:35:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
Gets in the way of being "tough on crime..." After all, if you ain't guily, what are you afraid of? :)

Exactly, thank you VERY much!

I wish most republicrats would admit to being the rebirth of the nazi party, then the Dumbocrats could confess to being Stalinites in seach of the perfect commune and leave the rest of us who think the constitution was fine (after the 14th amemdment) the he11 alone!

Offline GreenCloud

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1365
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2005, 01:39:37 PM »
sandman..only reason why NRA is here is people liek me who donate money to save our guns...

f ing redicluos..pisses me off...I have to spend money so criminals know who isnt armed

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2005, 01:45:51 PM »
MT... to save you the trouble and to quote something that may explain it better than my feeble attempts...

"The second stance by the ACLU--which involves the 1939 Supreme Court case of U.S. vs. Miller--is equally flawed as their first belief.   This case is the only time the Supreme Court has had the opportunity to directly rule on the constitutionality of federal firearm statues during the 20th century.  In this case, the court ruled that "in the absence of any evidence that that the use or possession of a shotgun with a barrel of less than eighteen inches has a reasonable relationship or use in a militia, we cannot say that the 2nd Amendment guarantees the right of one to keep such an instrument."  In addition, the Court ruled that the weapon in question was not any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.  Clearly, for the keeping and bearing of a firearm to be constitutionally protected, the firearm should be a militia or military type weapon.  Also, the Court noted that the militia consisted of "all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. When called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."  The court implicitly rejected the belief that only those members of a specific militia are covered under the 2nd Amendment when it did not discuss whether there should be evidence that the defendants met the qualifications for inclusion in the militia.  Clearly, they understood that the militia was all of the people.   The rulings from this case are not supportive of the ACLU's position whatsoever, and in fact one could easily make an argument that if challenged, the bans on certain types of semiautomatic rifles, such as that included in the Brady Crime Bill and found in states such as New Jersey and California, are unconstitutional and would be struck down if challenged.  As with the first position of the ACLU, one must conclude that there is little or no evidence to support their position.  In fact, one would have to argue that the evidence supporting the opposite view presented by 2nd Amendment advocates is overwhelming. "

and Sandie.... if you feel that the NRA is supporting your right to keep and bear arms adequetly then I would ask.... Do you support them?   I would also point out that the NRA is not fighting the basic premis of the second but merely fighting a holding action...

I would like all restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms removed.   This would include machine guns and silencers but not ordinance.... ordinance is not arms.  Just as bombs and explosives  were not protected then.... they would not be now.

We are all in trouble tho if the supreme court ever rules that "the people" does not mean individuals but only a collective group.

lazs

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2005, 02:04:33 PM »
I believe in the 4th.

lazs

Offline lasersailor184

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8938
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2005, 02:11:28 PM »
I support all ammendments equally.  I just find the 2nd to be encroached upon more then all the others combined.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
chairboy...ACLU
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2005, 02:27:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I believe in the 4th.

lazs


I'll drink a 5th...
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!