Author Topic: Super vrs Uber  (Read 20197 times)

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2005, 08:25:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OttoJ
The 262 is far from being in the same "nearly made it" or "just made it" category as the Comet and Bearcat etc. The 262 entered limited production in September 1943. 262 fighterbombers of Erprobungskommando Schenk saw action in June 1944 against the Allied invasion, and the first documented air combat involving a 262 took place on 25 July 1944 when a Schwalbe pounced on an RAF Mosquito that barely managed to escape. One 262 was shot down near Brussels on 28 August 1944 by a pair of USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts, the first Me-262 to be lost to direct enemy action. Before the wars end more than 1400 262 were produced.


These are squadron service dates not production / trial / proto-types:

Definately June / July '44 for Erprobungskommando 262...

D9 entered service with JG26 Sept '44

K4 / G-10 - Oct '44

G-6/U2 (+ MW50) May '44

G-6/AS* May '44

G-14 / G-14/AS* July '44

*AS (DB603 supercharger) engined 109s performed similiar to a G-10 at alt.

Me-163 Service

All saw more combat then the F8F, F7F, P-51H, P-80 and Meteor combined.

Offline EdXCal

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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2005, 08:26:24 PM »
I myself beleave that some of the lesser planes on many sides help out more then the 43-44 buntch. Say the P-40B through N, this plane held on every front till better planes came along, by no means was it a bad plane, just not nearly as good as the ones it fought! lol
The P-38 in all it's forms domonated the the PTO, though most would agree that this was a war turner.
I also beleave that aircraft like the Fw-190 changed the war, an outstanding fighter and a large suprise for the allies when it entered service. I think the germans would have had a tought time staying in the war with only the 109's and 110's.
What gets me the most if how many "what if" aircraft that endded up being crap in the long run for different reasons.
The P-39, I looked up it's history and it wasn't build as a ground attack fighter at all! It was build under the same rules as the P-38, a fast climbing bomber interecepter. It met those requirment (though that was without weapons and armor) but for a single engine plane for the time it would have been better then the 109's or possably most other single engine planes of the time!
Then the US government got its nasty little hands on it, removed it's turbo super charger because they said the air scoop on the side made to much drag, so they removed that all together, removed 2 squar feet of wing area and smothed down the aircraft. Total resault:

2 mph faster at low alt.

30 mph slower at 20K and above.

better low alt turning rate and far worse at high alt.

With this now new low alt performance the US though "why not make this a low alt ground attack fighter?" and they did.
Once armor, self sealing fuel tanks, pilot armor and all weapons an pylons added, the aircraft was 40mph under it's original speed,  WAY out of balance and low alt only.
Think of it, if the government didn't get ther hands on the P-39, we could have gone into the war with a single engined mass build fighter able to match the Zero, 109, spit and yaks on it's own ground at the start of the war... Ahh, that would have been beautiful.
Now that might have been a war turner had it been given a real chance, which the performance it was suppost to have didn't really hit the battlefield till the P-39Q-20 and the P-63 Kingcobra, which were both good planes we just didn't need them by the end of the war with all the other aircraft in production so we sent them to russa where they kicked ass!
But they needed a low alt fighter there, good tank buster too with that 37mm cannon.
I just almost cry when I think of what the aircobra could have been. But I can dream can't I? lol

Edward
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 08:34:34 PM by EdXCal »

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2005, 08:30:20 PM »
The top Allied 'Ace' flew P-39s...

Offline EdXCal

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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2005, 08:35:32 PM »
Which aces? The top US Aces flew the P-38's and P-51s.

Edward

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2005, 08:43:38 PM »
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Originally posted by Karnak
Bruno,

I recall that there was a dogfight between those Meteors and some Fw190s before some Spitfires arrived and chased the Meteors off thinking they were German (being jets and all).

While no kills were claimed by either side, both were trying to kill.  That is combat by some measure of the word.

I do agree with you about the Meteor Mk I not being combat ready.  The Meteor Mk III was really the first regular service version.


I think you will find that the Spits attacked the Meteors as the Meteors were manuevering to attack the Fws. Spit logic > 2 jets engines = 262


EdXCal, the Soviets were part of the Allies.

Offline Squire

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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2005, 10:42:43 PM »
Soviet (allied) aces flew the P-39. Many of them did anyways.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2005, 11:53:49 PM »
Oh lord, here comes yet another month's rendition of the "Give me the P80, Bearcat and P51H"  becaudse the axis were loosing the war in 1945 thread...

If we are to take the thread starters ridicuous premise at face value then apparently all of the 700 Bf109K4 produced by Christmas 1944 were all prototypes that only saw combat because rampaging P51s and P47s bounced the LW test pilots on facxtory tesrt flights of the 700 Bf109K4 prototypes produced by Christmas 44.


:rofl
« Last Edit: September 24, 2005, 12:23:27 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2005, 04:53:08 AM »
Hi Bruno,

>A lot of folks want the latest and 'bestest' late war wonderwaffe or Allied super plane.

That's true, and I'd say it means that it makes sense commercially to implement these planes into Aces High :-)

Aces high is set in the WW2 era because that's the era when propeller fighters ruled the skies. However, the peak of propeller fighter performance was reached shortly after WW2, and I don't see any reason not to extend the scope of the game towards a broader perspective if the customers are asking for it.

>but even so it appears a lot of folks think WW2 air combat only revolves around the last 6 months of the war.

Well, without an RPS, in-game air combat does indeed only revolve around the last 6 months of the war. I'm sure that with an RPS, the pre-1945 aircraft would get more attention from the players, but on the other hand I'm sure that this wouldn't stop the interest in the peak performance planes either.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline hogenbor

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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2005, 04:54:46 AM »
No plane can be more 'Super' than the Brewster BW-239.

No matter how you look at it, its combat record with the FAF is beyond comparison.

Offline EdXCal

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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2005, 06:58:31 AM »
I know Russa was part of the Allies, I'm asking for names.
The P-39 only faired well on the eastern front, and still only to a limited amount! Against the early 109s I heard it had done well, but by the time the Fw190's came out it was very out classed.
Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of the P-39 but it's combat record is still not very good. It had to many flaws, and by the time they were worked out in the N, Q and P-63 there were already better aircraft flying in it's place.
But I've noticed allot of people not liking HTC's chose of aircraft to remodel, allot my old squad mates want the F4u's remodeled and I beleave the N1K needs it more then any other model in this game! (God it's ugly, it hardly even looks like an N1k) But I finallly cought on, it's all ETO aircraft, but with that being the case why didn't they remodel the Ta-152 when they remodeled the Fw190's?

Edward

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2005, 08:42:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by EdXCal
I know Russa was part of the Allies, I'm asking for names.
The P-39 only faired well on the eastern front, and still only to a limited amount! Against the early 109s I heard it had done well, but by the time the Fw190's came out it was very out classed.
Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of the P-39 but it's combat record is still not very good. It had to many flaws, and by the time they were worked out in the N, Q and P-63 there were already better aircraft flying in it's place.


The P-39 had a good combat record, not only in east with Soviets but with the 'western allies' as well (maybe not in kill totals but it was used quite effectively in New Guinea for example).

Top 5 Soviet Aces who flew the P-39:

Aleksandr Pokryshkin 59 kills / 48 in P-39s
Nikolay Gulaev 57 kills / 41 in P-39s    
Grigori Rechkalov 56 kills / 50 in P-39s   
Dimitriy Glinka 50 kills /  41 in P-39s   
Vladimir Bobrov 43 kills / ? in P-39s

Offline EdXCal

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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2005, 09:27:45 AM »
Well, once again, in Russa it did well, in Afriica (which I beleave it was used in limited numbers) it did horrably, agains the japs the P-400 (a british P-39D given on lend-lease taken back by the US) was known as "The P-40 with a 0 (zero) on it's tail." The plane was almost a joke against the japs.
In fighter combat the engine was often the first thing to go do to most fighter shots being from the tail. Do to this though crew servivabliaty was very high, the engine took the damage, not the pilot. In the ETO it's kill to lose was 1 to 3!!! It did horrably! But in ground attack it was outstanding.
But on the eastern front at frist from what I've read it started out horrably do to balance problems, the CG was to far back, the aircraft would often fall into a very deadly flat spin, so tight flat and vertical turns were limited.
But the Russians figured that out fast, they removed the .30 cals from the wings, they'ed removed some pilot armor and often fuel tanks aswell! Thats when it really started to show it's true colors! And if you read into it the Russians didn't even use the P-39 for ground or AT attack, though other countries found it useful in this role (Read into the development of the game Il-2 they talk all about it from the russian pilots they used to test the game) the Russians found it to be a great fighter below 10k, but only on the russian front did you find such low alt fighting on a normal bases.
So the plane was crap with the way it entered service, but once touched up like all combat aircraft of ww2 it became a good fighter, but only in the hands of russians.  To the US on the other hand it wasn't worth there time, it flew in africa and italy, but were almost only used for ground attack. (I've have one of those walk around books on the history on the P-39)
The US had other, better aircraft already in service, so upgrades to the P-39 were limited.

HAH! I found my book on fighter sorties in the ETO! (wow it's worse then I thought)

ETO 1942-45:

P-39:
Number of Sorties: 30,547
Bomb Tonnage: 121
Aircraft lose in combat: 107
Enemy aircraft destroyed in air: 14
Enemy A/C destoryed on ground: 18

So thats roughly a 1-9 kill ratio, every 9 P-39's shot down they would destroy an aircraft in the air and an aircraft on the ground.
Yet as said before in the hands of the russians it was outstanding. Mmm, I love stats.
But the whole point I was trying to make in the first place was, what if the P-39 was built to specs!!! The way the Yp-39 was, it could have been the best fighter at the start of the war, it might have even been the US's Me-109! Who knows, I was just saying, I would have liked to have seen that.
And on that subject, theres a game called Targetware, I'm thinking of making a prototype or "what if" mod for it. I think that would be great, all the aircraft that other games won't add, we could just make them our selves! Anyone interested?

Edward
« Last Edit: September 24, 2005, 09:29:56 AM by EdXCal »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2005, 11:02:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Oh lord, here comes yet another month's rendition of the "Give me the P80, Bearcat and P51H"  becaudse the axis were loosing the war in 1945 thread...

If we are to take the thread starters ridicuous premise at face value then apparently all of the 700 Bf109K4 produced by Christmas 1944 were all prototypes that only saw combat because rampaging P51s and P47s bounced the LW test pilots on facxtory tesrt flights of the 700 Bf109K4 prototypes produced by Christmas 44.


:rofl


hmmm ... I proposed one time to enable the late war Germand plane to people having logged either less than 30 hour in AH or more than 2000  :D

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2005, 02:13:07 PM »
Boy did this thread take a dump.

I find it humorous that there is at least one new thread a week trying to get the 109K to fly at just one more inch of manifold pressure and then maybe it will be as uber as it is supposed to be. Or maybe if it just rolled a little better, or dived a little better.

You might as well call this game "Desperate Frolines" with all of the week attempts to bleed a little more performnce out of outdated airplanes. The 109 was at it's end in 1943 let alone 1945.

Give it rest already:cry

Offline humble

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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2005, 02:29:43 PM »
The two allied aircraft this thread clearly applies to are the meteor and the F7F. The meteor was in active service...simply in a specific role that did not provide for air to air combat. The F7F was accepted for operational deployment in May 1944. So it was "on the books" as an operational airframe at the same time as any other "mid 1944" ride. It is the anomaly of the war, a plane that would have dominated on either front and been the premier fighter of the war was simply left on the shelf.

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