Author Topic: Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons? (Read 8446 times)

Gianlupo · « **Reply #30 on:** October 18, 2005, 09:12:24 AM »

Lol, well, just for the sake of being picky!

Btw, it's 2.06....

Karnak · « **Reply #31 on:** October 18, 2005, 10:16:31 AM »

Squire,

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the Hispano Mk I. The change from the Hispano Mk I to the Hispano Mk II invovled removing some bits that allowed it to be manually recocked if it jammed and the switch to being belt fed. The jamming issue in the Mk Ib and Mk IIb was not due to the Hispano Mk I, but rather to the fact that they installed them on their side in an attempt to minimize the bulge on the wing. The Mk Vb simply had them installed rightside up which eliminated the frisction that was causing the jamming.

I am 90% sure that is right. I'll need to look it up to be sure though.

Certainly Beaufighters used Hispano Mk Is without jamming issues.

Squire · « **Reply #32 on:** October 18, 2005, 10:25:20 AM »

Could very well be they got it to work on the Beaufighter ...but the 1st "British made" Hispano was the so called "Mk.I" and it was not a wide success do to problems of the french blueprints to british measurements, amongst other things. In any case the Hisp Mk.II soon followed...

Angus · « **Reply #33 on:** October 18, 2005, 10:33:53 AM »

Hispanos were tested on some pair of Hurricanes in the BoB without troubles.
Some squadron of Spits had them as well but with some trouble. Based at Rochford I think.

Crumpp · « **Reply #34 on:** October 18, 2005, 11:57:29 AM »

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man i wish they'll revisit the 190 lineup, do some important changes/add-ons to Antons

Pyro has said for a couple of years now that he is going to redo the FW190's FM's.

From our conversations I gather it is going to be much harder to model the FW190 properly with the games code.

The Kommandgerät functions linking manifold pressure, prop pitch, and prop rpm will most likely never be modeled.

The fuel tankage also would require special coding as I understand it if the option of the Zusatzkraftstoffbehälter im rumpf was correctly modelled.

Our FW190A5 is way too light at the moment. AH data shows 3,893.18kg's. That is much lighter than an FW-190A3 with wing cannon as tested by the RAE!

Currently working on lining up all the aerodynamic data I have gathered. So far me and several others, using original documentation have narrowed the turn radius of the FW190A5 to roughly 15.8 degrees a second at 1Km altitude. This matches the VVS test data very well. In that report, the La 7 turned at 18 degrees a second under the same conditions. In otherwords, it would take an La7 roughly 116 turns to come full circle on an FW190. Now the best sustained rate of turn speeds are very different. However, as long as the FW190 flew his best numbers and used geometery he could "turn" fight an La7. The FW190 would have to use Yo-Yo's as the real FW190 pilots did to fly a longer path at a faster speed. The differences however are just not that dramatic.

Granted there are some holes in our data at the moment. The VVS test was done under "max continous power" which is 1.2ata @ 2300U/min for the FW-190A5 while our turn calculations are done at 1.42ata@2700U/min. Weight on the aircraft was 3995kg which is short of the full up wieght of 4088kgs most likely due to fuel consumption.

So it is too early to say just yet.

All the best,

Crumpp

Angus · « **Reply #35 on:** October 18, 2005, 01:36:04 PM »

Uhmmm, - what if the Lala Pilot also decides to do yo-yo's?

SKJohn · « **Reply #36 on:** October 18, 2005, 02:51:18 PM »

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Originally posted by Angus
Hispanos were tested on some pair of Hurricanes in the BoB without troubles.
Some squadron of Spits had them as well but with some trouble. Based at Rochford I think.

I think I remeber reading somewhere that Douglas Bader's a/c had the cannons installed during BOB, but due to problems with them, they went back to the machine guns.
Maybe it was after BOB.......?
Maybe it wasn't Bader......?
Oh well, I do remember reading about some problem with cannon armed spitfires somewhere???

Gianlupo · « **Reply #37 on:** October 18, 2005, 02:54:38 PM »

AFAIK it wasn't Bader. He flew the Hurricane during the BoB.

Karnak · « **Reply #38 on:** October 18, 2005, 04:06:16 PM »

It definately wasn't Bader. He and Tuck almost got in a fist fight because Bader advocated sticking with the pure .303 armament and Tuck and Malan both backed the move to 20mm cannon when the three were asked their opinions. Bader felt the .303s had gotten them by so far and it wasn't a good idea to go mucking with what was working. Tuck felt that they'd have gotten a whole lot more of the hun if they'd had cannon.

Gianlupo · « **Reply #39 on:** October 18, 2005, 04:11:57 PM »

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but... what did Sailor think about it? I know he was used to say that it was better to send back home a german bomber full of woundeds and deads than to shoot it down, to break their nerve... so the .303 seemed perfect for that...

Crumpp · « **Reply #40 on:** October 18, 2005, 04:44:54 PM »

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Uhmmm, - what if the Lala Pilot also decides to do yo-yo's?

Ummm, he does yo-yo's too???

I would say the fight last's much longer than if the La 7 pilot decided to turn at his best sustainable numbers while the FW190 yo-yo'd.

All the best,

Crumpp

Karnak · « **Reply #41 on:** October 18, 2005, 05:01:51 PM »

Gianlupo,

He supported the cannons. Bader was the first to speak, then Malan and as Malan contradicted Bader, Bader got more and more irratated. Then Tuck said that Malan had said about all Tuck wanted and he'd only add that he was sure they'd have gotten a lot more of them if they'd had cannons and Bader lost his temper and Tuck reciprocated.

This forum is wierd. This thread went from a post about how much cannon ammo a Spitfire Mk Vb should have to the Fw190 and La-7 doing yo-yos with eachother.

I can't even claim to be innocent in the hijacking of it though.

Crumpp · « **Reply #42 on:** October 18, 2005, 05:06:00 PM »

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I can't even claim to be innocent in the hijacking of it though.

Not me, never I say!!

Sorry.....

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Uhmmm, - what if the Lala Pilot also decides to do yo-yo's?

What if a frog had wings? Would he still bump his behind on the ground?

What if frogs had pockets? Would they carry pistols and shoot snakes?

All the best,

Crumpp

Angus · « **Reply #43 on:** October 18, 2005, 07:03:42 PM »

Lol....

Anyway, - Bader was against the cannons, - he thought the job could easily be done with the reliable 303's if getting close enough.
Come to think of it,- the LW lost some 1200+ aircraft (destroyed) to the humble .303 in the BoB. Now while the setup would not perhaps have mattered too much in fighter-to-fighter engagements (mind you, some German fighter pilots considered their 20mm inadequate for dealing with the RAF guys), - imagine the RAF had really been mounting 20mm's with either 60 or 120 RPG's, already in 1940. My bet is they had killed bombers at a swatting rate! Not sent them home full of holes, - just returning dog tags.
Bader was always quite stubborn, - and in his decisions and such like, he got involved into some power struggling conflicts during and after the BoB. Such as Leigh-Mallory vs Dowding & Park for instance (Big wing theories) and as well, in a much less empasized way, - the gun debate.
He did not have things in his way about the cannons, and IMHO, both Tuck and Malan knew the business better. Now, Malan, was probably the toughest fighter and commander during the BoB and his position in the battle (front line) was vastly tougher than the one of Bader. Although he DID like to send the enemy home full of holes and corpses, he must have thought it looked even better with 20mm holes!
I have been comparing the load of .303's and .50's from WW2 recently and found myself stunned how vastly bigger and more powerful the 50 cal was.
And yet it is quite less a weapon than the 20mm! I have read some pilot accounts about disappointment with the .50 cal compared to the 20mm. So, that's something to consider!

BTW Karnak, do you have some stuff about Tuck????????
Recommendations????

Crumpp · « **Reply #44 on:** October 18, 2005, 07:09:04 PM »

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(mind you, some German fighter pilots considered their 20mm inadequate for dealing with the RAF guys),

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imagine the RAF had really been mounting 20mm's with either 60 or 120 RPG's, already in 1940.

????

Did the RAF make their planes out of some special material or were the Luftwaffe just flying paper airplanes?

You have a source for the RAF being especially impervious to Minegeschoss?

You should read some vunerability reports. I think you would find them interesting.

All the best,

Crumpp