Author Topic: Will there ever be a new three holer in the airline industry (Read 456 times)

RAIDER14 · « **on:** October 30, 2005, 11:47:24 AM »

I was wondering if any of the aircraft manufactures were gonna consider developing a three holer the MD-11 was by far the best three holer there is but I would like to see some new one's.

THREE HOLER-a 3 engined aircraft such as the MD11,DC10,L1011

Bring back the three holer:aok

Ripsnort · « **Reply #1 on:** October 30, 2005, 11:48:31 AM »

I doubt it, considering that they can make an engine that puts out over 90,000 lbs of thrust.

Dago · « **Reply #2 on:** October 30, 2005, 11:53:09 AM »

Good Lord I hope not.

First, the MD11 was a dismal failure, quickly dumped by the airlines at a loss and now just flies cargo.

Two, ETOPS programs and engine reliability, with the increased power generally makes the third engine unnecessary.

Three, that center engine on the DC10/MD11 is a huge pain in the butt to work on and requires a big maintenance stand.

dago

Debonair · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2005, 12:17:30 PM »

On the plus side, placing the engines on the empenage puts a lot of weight back there for a nice fuel efficient aft CG. Falcon 50EX is a fairly new aircraft....

Bodhi · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2005, 12:37:05 PM »

727 was / is the best "three holer" ever designed.

End of discussion.

Furball · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2005, 12:42:14 PM »

why not go for 4 in the tail

Dinger · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2005, 01:19:58 PM »

Uncontained engine failure?

3-holers -- in addition to what's been said, the problem with sticking an engine up in the tail, from what I understand, is that you really can't get the high bypass ratios needed for today's fuel economy.

The Mad Dog 11 was a failure for more than just being a 3-holer. It doesn't land very easily or comfortably, and has a tendency to make hard landings spectacular. Plus, that SwissAir accident sealed the deal.

RAIDER14 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2005, 01:38:12 PM »

Have you seen the Fedex three holers like the MD-11 that has the most problems but sure looks huge

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=589607&WxsIERv=ZpQbaaryy%20Qbhtynf%20ZQ-11S&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=SrqRk%20Rkcerff&QtODMg=Zrzcuvf%20-%20Vagreangvbany%20%28ZRZ%20%2F%20XZRZ%29&ERDLTkt=HFN%20-%20Graarffrr&ktODMp=Znepu%2030%2C%202004&BP=0&WNEb25u=Qnivq%20Wnzrf%20Pyrysbeq&xsIERvdWdsY=A594SR&MgTUQtODMgKE=Jung%20n%20jvatfcna%21%21%21&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=464&NEb25uZWxs=2004-05-31%2000%3A00%3A00&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=48552%2F530&static=yes&width=1600&height=1060&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27ZpQbaaryy%20Qbhtynf%20ZQ-11%27%20BE%20nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27Obrvat%20ZQ-11%27%29%20NAQ%20%28nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27Srqreny%20Rkcerff%25%27%20BE%20nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27SrqRk%25%27%20BE%20nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27Fjvffnve%20%28SrqRk%20-%20Srqreny%20Rkcerff%29%25%27%29%20NAQ%20%28ZNGPU%20%28nvepensg%2Cnveyvar%2Ccynpr%2Ccubgb_qngr%2Cpbhagel%2Cerznex%2Ccubgbtencure%2Crznvy%2Clrne%2Cert%2Cnvepensg_trarevp%2Cpa%2Cpbqr%29%20NTNVAFG%20%28%27%2B%22jvatfcna%22%27%20VA%20OBBYRNA%20ZBQR%29%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=1&prev_id=&next_id=NEXTID

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=893277&WxsIERv=ZpQbaaryy%20Qbhtynf%20ZQ-11%28S%29&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=SrqRk%20-%20Srqreny%20Rkcerff&QtODMg=Flqarl%20-%20Xvatfsbeq%20Fzvgu%20Vagreangvbany%20%28Znfpbg%29%20%28FLQ%20%2F%20LFFL%29&ERDLTkt=Nhfgenyvn%20-%20Arj%20Fbhgu%20Jnyrf&ktODMp=Nhthfg%202004&BP=0&WNEb25u=Fnz%20Puhv&xsIERvdWdsY=A%2A%2A%2A%2A%2A&MgTUQtODMgKE=Nyzbfg%20qnex%20gnxrbss%20ba%20Ejl25%20ol%20ZQ-11%20Gevwrg.%20%5BAvxba%20Q100%5D&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=1455&NEb25uZWxs=2005-08-04%2015%3A21%3A13&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=&static=yes&width=1000&height=678&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27ZpQbaaryy%20Qbhtynf%20ZQ-11%27%20BE%20nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27Obrvat%20ZQ-11%27%29%20NAQ%20%28nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27Srqreny%20Rkcerff%25%27%20BE%20nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27SrqRk%25%27%20BE%20nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27Fjvffnve%20%28SrqRk%20-%20Srqreny%20Rkcerff%29%25%27%29%20%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=39&prev_id=893541&next_id=891640

Terror · « **Reply #8 on:** November 01, 2005, 11:46:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Debonair
On the plus side, placing the engines on the empenage puts a lot of weight back there for a nice fuel efficient aft CG. Falcon 50EX is a fairly new aircraft....

I always thought aft CG was a fuel waster, not a fuel saver. ... gonna have to get out the old weights and balances books...

Terror

Dago · « **Reply #9 on:** November 01, 2005, 04:40:42 PM »

Silly me, I tought CGs were usually centered around the wing area regardless of engine mount positioning.

Debonair · « **Reply #10 on:** November 01, 2005, 05:28:29 PM »

CG at or near the rearward limits means less downward force is needed from the horizontal stabilizer & the result is more fuel efficient flight.

Chairboy · « **Reply #11 on:** November 01, 2005, 05:51:04 PM »

Aft CG trades stability for fuel efficiency/performance. Some planes actually pump fuel to the back for cruise, then back forward for landing. Stability is less of an issue in level, unaccelerated flight.

Dago · « **Reply #12 on:** November 01, 2005, 06:31:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Debonair
CG at or near the rearward limits means less downward force is needed from the horizontal stabilizer & the result is more fuel efficient flight.

Yup, but the CG still remains in the wing area.

Dont really need to mount engines on the tail to establish an aft CG.

Look at a plane like the 747, the outboard engines are mounted well aft of the CG. If you remove engines 2 and 3, you have to be careful not to tip the aircraft on its tail.

Debonair · « **Reply #13 on:** November 01, 2005, 07:10:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dago
...Dont really need to mount engines on the tail to establish an aft CG...

Yes, but it couldn't hurt

Habu · « **Reply #14 on:** November 01, 2005, 08:32:13 PM »

There are many advantages to mounting engines on the wing. The only reason to mount a 3rd engine was when you had engines too small to fly safely if one died in flight.

Some of the advantages of wing mounted engines are less pitch moment from the thrust, less noise in the cabin, easier access for maintanance, cleaner air entering the engine, less chance for debris from wheels kicking up to the engine etc etc.