Author Topic: And pigs will fly  (Read 4029 times)

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #165 on: November 12, 2005, 11:36:53 AM »
Isn't it ironic that every great thing man has done or created is a result of intelligent design, science included?

Science is not going away  and I don't know of anyone who is saying anything remotely like that. Science and religion are not incompatible.
Einstein once said that science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

True critical thinking is what a lot of you are not willing to do though.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #166 on: November 12, 2005, 11:48:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Einstein once said that science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
 


Bull****.

Quote
True critical thinking is what a lot of you are not willing to do though.
[/b]

Like yourself, for example?
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #167 on: November 12, 2005, 12:02:50 PM »
Poor Hang, you don't seem to have the capacity to argue about much (other than how many bullets an M1 can hold, and other basic things you might have learned), or to even understand a basic principle, so you resort to personally attacking me.

Intelligent design is the reason for everything man has created and done, not random events and things exploding into existence out of thin air.

The basic principle is that there is no logical reason to rule out the idea of an intelligent design for the universe. You rule it out, but not because you are smart or because of some proof, but rather because you are ignorant, close minded, and because you "believe" it can't be a possible.

I will go with science AND logic. Reason, logic, criticle thinking.

So far you have offeren nothing other than low-brow remarks and confused statements. You don't even believe Eisnstein's own words if they clash with your comfort zone.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #168 on: November 12, 2005, 12:18:14 PM »
Some relevent Einstein quotes:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence"

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

"My religiosity consists in a humble admiratation of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God."

Offline Samiam

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« Reply #169 on: November 12, 2005, 12:22:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Science and religion are not incompatible.


I agree, NUKE.

But it's more like they shouldn't be incompatible. But more often than not,  religeous dogma gets in the way of the true meaningfull message and results in religeon being a barrier to science - witness Copernicus and Galileo.

Where we depart, or what you are failing to understand in my argument, is that it is essential that we teach our children to distinguish between the two.

I would argue that in order for ones faith to be meaningfull, one must fully comprehend the depth of that faith and not pretend that it can be scientifically understood.

And we should not, under any circumstances, cloak a faith-based (or supernatural) explanation of any phenomina to our children as science.

Science class should be reserved for science. There's no confusion this way and kids will have greater apreciation of thier faith.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #170 on: November 12, 2005, 12:33:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Samiam
I agree, NUKE.

But it's more like they shouldn't be incompatible. But more often than not,  religeous dogma gets in the way of the true meaningfull message and results in religeon being a barrier to science - witness Copernicus and Galileo.

Where we depart, or what you are failing to understand in my argument, is that it is essential that we teach our children to distinguish between the two.

I would argue that in order for ones faith to be meaningfull, one must fully comprehend the depth of that faith and not pretend that it can be scientifically understood.

And we should not, under any circumstances, cloak a faith-based (or supernatural) explanation of any phenomina to our children as science.

Science class should be reserved for science. There's no confusion this way and kids will have greater apreciation of thier faith.


Here is what I'm thinking you are not understanding about my point, and intelligent design.

The basic, rock bottom fact that the existance of all energy/matter is not explainable by any science that is being taught. "Super natural" is basically what one is led to believe is science's explaination is for the existence of matter, because the fact that matter exists flys in the face of science itself.

If teaching a kid that all the matter in the universe exploded into existance from nothing one day is okay, then it should be fair game to also explain that it is indeed a possibility that an intelligence could have caused it. That has nothing to do with religion.

In fact, science has elements of it's own that could be said to be "religious"

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #171 on: November 12, 2005, 01:00:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Some relevent Einstein quotes:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence"

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

"My religiosity consists in a humble admiratation of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God."


Nuke, the 'science without religion quote' is a flat out lie. How interesting that you would choose to surround a lie with half truths and incomplete, reworded or out of context summations that would enrage the man you attribute them to. In the future, should you choose to attribute Einstein to be the source of your lies you'd better do it with the source footnotes, because I will again call you a bald faced liar and a hypocrite for trying to pawn them off here.

Now, here's the TRUTH:

Quote
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter March 24, 1954; from Albert Einstein the Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 43.


looks like he's calling you a liar also, Nuke.

Quote
“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 216.


Looks like Einstein has no paitence with 'Religion', Nuke.

Quote
“The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery — even if mixed with fear — that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms-it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.”

Albert Einstein, The World as I See It, Secaucus, New Jersy: The Citadel Press, 1999, p. 5.


Looks like Einstein appreciates nature... Not religious tripe, Nuke.

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“It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems.”

Albert Einstein, 1947; from Banesh Hoffmann, Albert Einstein Creator and Rebel, New York: New American Library, 1972, p. 95.


Looks Like Einstein's religion is that of the Supremacy of Nature.. not the Supremacy of Religion. Nuke.. yer thievery of this mans thoughts and intent for your own base and uncouth religious diatribe is disgusting. Where's your morality, Nuke?

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“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.… This is a somewhat new kind of religion.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter to Hans Muehsam, March 30, 1954; Einstein Archive 38-434; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 218.


You catching on yet, Nuke?

Quote
“The most important human endeavor is the striving for morality in our actions. Our inner balance and even our very existence depend on it. Only morality in our actions can give beauty and dignity to life. To make this a living force and bring it to clear consciousness is perhaps the foremost task of education. The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action.”

Albert Einstein, letter to a minister November 20, 1950; from Albert Einstein the Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 95.


That's the real 'morality' quote, Nuke.. not the trash you posted above and attributed to him.

Quote
“I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism.”

Albert Einstein, replying to a letter in 1954 or 1955; from Albert Einstein the Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 39.


And thats the real mysticisim quote, Nuke.. you lied again.

You disgust me.. you should be a politician.
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #172 on: November 12, 2005, 01:03:28 PM »
Yeah Hang, congratulations on finding other quotes. Doesn't really make the others I have listed, which he has said,  go away though.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #173 on: November 12, 2005, 01:06:28 PM »
Lets see the footnotes, sources.

Proof.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #174 on: November 12, 2005, 01:13:01 PM »
I'm reminded of William Burroughs in his "Word of advice to young people" where he advises "If you’re doing business with a religious son of a *****, get it in writing; his word isn’t worth ****, not with the good lord telling him how to **** you on the deal."

Nuke may simply feel no compunction to keep the conversation honest when he "knows" that he's right.  Don't take it personally, religion is a world spanning structure that, among other things, can lead even good people to do bad or evil things while truly believing themselves to be righteous.  Nuke's probably not a bad guy, he just doesn't feel any compunction to operate by the same rules you do.

Which is why I've pulled out of direct conflict in this thread.  You're his dancing monkey, and Jesus is clapping you on from the sidelines in his mind.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #175 on: November 12, 2005, 01:15:59 PM »
Agreed Chairboy. However, I have in my old age reached near terminal quantity acceptance levels with regards to bull****.

When I see it, I call it. ;)

The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #176 on: November 12, 2005, 01:29:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy

Nuke may simply feel no compunction to keep the conversation honest when he "knows" that he's right.  Don't take it personally, religion is a world spanning structure that, among other things, can lead even good people to do bad or evil things while truly believing themselves to be righteous.  Nuke's probably not a bad guy, he just doesn't feel any compunction to operate by the same rules you do.

Which is why I've pulled out of direct conflict in this thread.  You're his dancing monkey, and Jesus is clapping you on from the sidelines in his mind.


What I have said is what I believe to be a reasonable discussion. Honest? I am being honest. You feel that I'm not being honest just because you don't agree with me?

The Einstein quotes are there for anyone to find, Hang found the quotes he wanted to find, I found the ones I wanted to find. The difference is that Hang stomps around like a child and tells me my quotes are lies and demands footnotes. Just for a clue, some of those quotes are from letters Einstein replied to in direct questions about God and/or religion. There are plent more.

Hang also engaged in personal attacks, when I have kept my arguments to the subject and to my beliefs. Too bad if Hang doesn't have the processing power to debate with his own thoughts or ideas....instead he just bashes around like a bull in a china shop.

The fact is that matter and energy exist and they had to have either always existed, or have been created. Which does science teach? Have any good answers, or even any ideas or thoughts Chairboy? I suppose you think that anything is possible, as long as it happend at random. If that makes you feel better, so be it.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2005, 01:33:16 PM by NUKE »

Offline Curval

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« Reply #177 on: November 12, 2005, 01:35:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
darwin's theories are evidenced by the spork, which clearly evolved from the plastic spoon.

match, game, set.


...and evolution continues....introducing....t he Knork
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #178 on: November 12, 2005, 02:09:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Lets see the footnotes, sources.

Proof.


Proof???

You dont need proof or science, yoiu need IMAGINATION!!!

:rofl :rofl :aok

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #179 on: November 12, 2005, 02:18:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Proof???

You dont need proof or science, yoiu need IMAGINATION!!!

:rofl :rofl :aok


That's actually true. Science has a great imagination when it come to explaining what is otherwise opposed by it's own laws and understanding.

All the energy/matter in the universe just exploded into existance. No imagination or reasoning is needed beyond that, end of story as far as science is teaching our kids.

"But, mr science teacher....... if energy or matter cannot be created or destroyed, how does science explain where the energy/matter came from"

Well Johnny, that's not a question for science, that's a philosophical question. You see Johnny, time began aftter the Big Bang, therefore even thinking about what happened before that is just crazy talk.

Which part of physics is wrong? Maybe it was just wrong one time, then after the big bang, everything started obeying the laws again.