Author Topic: And pigs will fly  (Read 4019 times)

Offline Silat

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2536
And pigs will fly
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2005, 05:02:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skilless
The Big Bang Theory is filled with phrases like "it's believed that" and "it's thought that"  The difference between a theory and faith is that theorists believe and people of faith know.

So you're telling me you can google the mean of life now?  Modern technology is something else!


Skill get back to me when you find the definitions of what a theory is in the scientific community.
Religion has no relationship to scientific fact or theory. ID doesnt pass the test to make it even to the THEORY level.
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Silat

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2536
And pigs will fly
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2005, 05:04:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
First of all, you seem frustrated and are attacking me personally. I have not once said anything about what you believe or how you should live your life.

I have not said anything about religion. The debate is about the origins of the universe and of life. In your quote, you have said that the idea of an intelligent creator is just religious tripe, so therefore you are only saying you have an open mind about it, when in reality you do not. That's what I get out of it.

No one is saying that anyone has the answers, I am saying that it's just as logical to view the universe as a product of an intelligent creator as it is to say it created itself out of nothing.



I think this is about whether matters of FAITH should be taught in science class NUKE.

                               :)
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
And pigs will fly
« Reply #92 on: November 09, 2005, 05:08:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Sandman,

Not to split hairs, but while other religions may be fine with the above as part of their definition of faith (illogical, lacking in evidence), neither I nor the majority of Reformed theologians would accept it as part of a viable definition of the Christian faith.
- SEAGOON


I'll bite. What evidence do you have?
sand

Offline Silat

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2536
And pigs will fly
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2005, 05:11:56 PM »
At the heart of evolutionary theory is the basic idea that life has existed for billions of years and has changed over time.

Overwhelming evidence supports this fact. Scientists continue to argue about details of evolution, but the question of whether life has a long history or not was answered in the affirmative at least two centuries ago.

The history of living things is documented through multiple lines of evidence that converge to tell the story of life through time.



At the heart of FAITH is absolutely no evidence.............
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Skilless

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 578
      • http://www.4remnants.com
And pigs will fly
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2005, 05:12:00 PM »
A theory is an educated guess developed to explain an unknown occurrence.  An educated guess is an hypothesis drawn from the likelihood of an occurrence as related to similar known occurrences.

My point, which you apparently missed, is that to believe wholeheartedly that a scientific theory is fact, takes a certain leap of faith.

To have FAITH in a higher power means that the believer knows their convictions to be fact. (doesn't necessarily mean it is fact in either instance)

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
And pigs will fly
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2005, 05:17:45 PM »
You all can believe and have all the faith you want. You can even have a sense of certainty about the origins of the universe.

Just keep that weak crap outta my kids science class.

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
And pigs will fly
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2005, 05:32:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skilless
A theory is an educated guess developed to explain an unknown occurrence.  An educated guess is an hypothesis drawn from the likelihood of an occurrence as related to similar known occurrences.

My point, which you apparently missed, is that to believe wholeheartedly that a scientific theory is fact, takes a certain leap of faith.

To have FAITH in a higher power means that the believer knows their convictions to be fact. (doesn't necessarily mean it is fact in either instance)


Perhaps the choices are Scientific Method vs Faith? As far as Faith is concerned, all the Facts are in. Science on the other hand continues to re-evaluate the evidence and postulate theory to accomodate the data.

Care to guess which program I think should be taught in science class?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
And pigs will fly
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2005, 05:46:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skilless
A theory is an educated guess developed to explain an unknown occurrence.  An educated guess is an hypothesis drawn from the likelihood of an occurrence as related to similar known occurrences.
Don't confuse your definition of a theory with that of scientific theory.

Quote
Originally posted by Skilless
My point, which you apparently missed, is that to believe wholeheartedly that a scientific theory is fact, takes a certain leap of faith.
Scientific theory is not a fact but based on the facts. Nothing in science is absolute, for we can't know all about everything, therefore it's called theory. Even so, it does not requires faith but rather probability.

Quote
Originally posted by Skilless
To have FAITH in a higher power means that the believer knows their convictions to be fact.
Uhh, which facts? You mean something like: "God created people. There in fact are people, so there must be god"?

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
And pigs will fly
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2005, 06:04:21 PM »
ID isn't science.
Some people have physics and metaphysics mixed up.
What's next to be taught after this? I don't mean to slippery slope, but what stops anything, say racism, to find its way into class?
Maybe mathematics' definition can be rewritten to not be limited to logic?

If it isn't rational thru and thru, the "facts" taught might as well come from an eight-ball.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Pei

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1903
And pigs will fly
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2005, 07:13:39 PM »
Evolution is a scientific theory.

Intelligent design is a religous theory.

They should not be taught in the same class but in separate classes (one in science and one in religion). Teaching them in the same class or even comparing them is a victory for the fundamentalists who hold belief over knowlege.

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
And pigs will fly
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2005, 08:42:44 PM »
If you consider ideas as a metaphor for viruses, ID is going to disappear as per Darwin. :lol
There really oughta be a basic or crashcourse philosophy class required the same way basic english comp is.   I don't think it's a good idea to just ingest any religion without a neutral base of philosophy first.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2005, 08:47:36 PM by moot »
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Samiam

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 498
Science, what's that?
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2005, 09:48:52 PM »
I guess, as a feeble minded people, we prefer to perpetuate our own ignorance to our children. Becuase so many posters here have no concept of what science is, how can we expect them to support properly teaching it to our children?

Quote
   A theory is an educated guess developed to explain an unknown occurrence. An educated guess is an hypothesis drawn from the likelihood of an occurrence as related to similar known occurrences.


Skilless, you must've been sleeping when the scientific method was taught to you - or maybe you went to school in Kansas. A scientific theory is not a guess of any kind. It is an explanation of a complex system that is supported by hard, cold, provable facts.


Quote
The Big Bang Theory is filled with phrases like "it's believed that" and "it's thought that" The difference between a theory and faith is that theorists believe and people of faith know.


The difference between scientific theory and faith is that scientific theory is supported by observable, provable facts.

You're faith may be 100% true, and worthy of being taught to everyone on the planet. That does not make it scientifically valid. You can put forth a hypothesis that may make perfectly rational sense and call that hypothisis anything you want - creation theory, intelligent design - but it is only an unsubstantiated hypothesis - NOT SCIENCE - until you can substatiate it with observable, testable, verifiable facts.

If we wish to advance technology and do things like feed the world, prevent disease, and expand our understanding of the universe, we need to seperate what we know to be true by faith from what we can establish as being true using science and understand the place each has in our lives.

Or, we could chose to regres and sit around in our own feces, wondering why we are getting sick and dying, and believing that the sun revolves around the earth.

Quote
I have not said anything about religion. The debate is about the origins of the universe and of life. In your quote, you have said that the idea of an intelligent creator is just religious tripe, so therefore you are only saying you have an open mind about it, when in reality you do not. That's what I get out of it.


The debate is about what should be taught as science in our schools. How about I concede that we should "properly teach the science of ID" in our schools?

By this, I mean we teach that there are people who believe in intellegent design, but that there is not one shred of scientific evidence to support this belief. That the basis of this belief is the biblical account combined with some gaps in what we can currently scientifically prove. We all know that taking a book on faith is not science. We also know, through our study of the scientific method that you do not prove a positive with a negative. Ergo, even though people believe in itelligent design, this belief has nothing to do with science, and this is a science class, so the issue is mute. Itelligent design may or may not be wrong, but it is absolutely wrong to consider it science. End of discussion of intelligent design is science class.

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
And pigs will fly
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2005, 10:04:27 PM »
In my view, the Big Bang and evolution of species are fine. The problem I have is the point at which both theories break down and become nothing other than an ID style argument.

The Big bang breakes down at the point of origin for all the matter/energy. It's fine for explaining after the point of th explosion, but it does not cover the creation of the energy/matter in the first place. This point should be made and it should be noted that there really are only three logical explainations for the existance of matter

1. it always existed
2. it created itself
3. something created it.

The options are valid. The idea that an intelligence could have been responsible is not unscientific or illogical any more than the other two options are. If nobody knows, and no option can be proven or disproven, then at the very least they should all be presented as viable options.

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
And pigs will fly
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2005, 11:17:13 PM »
waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle..

egg.

Which came first?

the waffle or the egg?

I'll take mine with bacon.

Class dismissed.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
And pigs will fly
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2005, 11:23:55 PM »
Hello Silat,

Quote
Originally posted by Silat
At the heart of evolutionary theory is the basic idea that life has existed for billions of years and has changed over time.

Overwhelming evidence supports this fact. Scientists continue to argue about details of evolution, but the question of whether life has a long history or not was answered in the affirmative at least two centuries ago.

The history of living things is documented through multiple lines of evidence that converge to tell the story of life through time.

At the heart of FAITH is absolutely no evidence.............


I know that you an unshakeable belief in the truth of what you have written above Silat, but long before I became a Christian, when I was still a pagan and a believer in Darwinianism I began to have serious doubts about evolution simply from reading what was being written by palentologists and biochemists in popular scientific journals. Stephen Jay Gould in particular had a profound effect on me, because while he was an atheist and a materialist, he wasn't afraid to face the fact that there are insurmountable problems with Darwinian theory and to propose new solutions such as punctuated equilibrium and to critique those who were doggedly maintaining the status quo in spite of mounting evidence, and even attacking them as being guilty of the same closed-mindedness the Medieval church is accused of by materialists.

In one of the best pieces he ever wrote, entitled "Darwinian Fundamentalism" (available online here ) Gould wrote the following:

"In this light, especially given history's tendency to recycle great issues, I am amused by an irony that has recently ensnared evolutionary theory. A movement of strict constructionism, a self-styled form of Darwinian fundamentalism, has risen to some prominence in a variety of fields, from the English biological heartland of John Maynard Smith to the uncompromising ideology (albeit in graceful prose) of his compatriot Richard Dawkins, to the equally narrow and more ponderous writing of the American philosopher Daniel Dennett (who entitled his latest book Darwin's Dangerous Idea). Moreover, a larger group of strict constructionists are now engaged in an almost mordantly self-conscious effort to "revolutionize" the study of human behavior along a Darwinian straight and narrow under the name of "evolutionary psychology."

Some of these ideas have filtered into the general press, but the uniting theme of Darwinian fundamentalism has not been adequately stressed or identified. Professionals, on the other hand, are well aware of the connections. My colleague Niles Eldredge, for example, speaks of this coordinated movement as Ultra-Darwinism in his recent book, Reinventing Darwin. Amid the variety of their subject matter, the ultra-Darwinists share a conviction that natural selection regulates everything of any importance in evolution, and that adaptation emerges as a universal result and ultimate test of selection's ubiquity.

The irony of this situation is twofold. First, as illustrated by the quotation above, Darwin himself strongly opposed the ultras of his own day. (In one sense, this nicety of history should not be relevant to modern concerns; maybe Darwin was overcautious, and modern ultras therefore out-Darwin Darwin for good reason. But since the modern ultras push their line with an almost theological fervor, and since the views of founding fathers do matter in religion, though supposedly not in science, Darwin's own fierce opposition does become a factor in judgment.) Second, the invigoration of modern evolutionary biology with exciting nonselectionist and nonadaptationist data from the three central disciplines of population genetics, developmental biology, and paleontology (see examples below) makes our pre-millennial decade an especially unpropitious time for Darwinian fundamentalism—and seems only to reconfirm Darwin's own eminently sensible pluralism."

In other words Silat, even men like Gould and Eldridge, materialists to the core, identified the kind of ultra-darwinist fervor you are displaying as more theological and faith oriented than scientific. The unreasoning refusal to even consider, for the briefest moment, that neo-Darwinism and natural selection might not be right in light of rapidly developing evidence is hardly a hallmark of good science. To paraphrase Gould, we have moved from the era of observation to the era of anathematization.

I've read Dawkins and Darwin Silat, but ask yourself, why wouldn't you even consider reading Behe or Johnson?

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams