A Parody

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
The handgun is the real equalizer in terms of skill and size

Yes, exactly so. That's why we have that simplistic old saw that "God made man. Sam Colt made man equal.

It's a double-edged sword <pun> isn't it?

If you are small and weak, an equalizer is a GOOD thing. A non-violent person of small stature is no longer at the mercy of a big mean violent person. Hooray for Sam Colt!

OTOH, an armed big mean person is even more dangerous, especially to a person without an "equalizer". Boo! Bad Sam Colt!

It gets back to one thing. It's the PERSON performing the act that is the problem, not whatever inanimate object he/she chooses to wreak havoc on another human being.

Perhaps the biggest problem I see in society today is our inability to place responsibility on an individual. There is always an excuse to justify misbehavior. It's never any individuals "fault".

I just don't agree with that approach.

[BagPiper]

Great anaolgy regarding the car/gun thing.

My dad had a case once that is pretty relevant to this.

Two fellows back home were always at each other's throats, and one day one of them laid in wait outside of the other guy's local watering whole, where the parking lot was across the street.  When the guy in the bar left, he walked out the door and started to cross the street, when his killer wasted him.

The guy wasn't shot, he was run down by the killer's car.  This killer had some brains though, and as best the police could tell, we was drinking in the car just enough to stay over the limit, and then guzzled the rest of the bottle once he had hit his target at about 80 km/h (only 20 km/h over speed limit, but quite deadly to human body).  Five minutes later the police came and arrested him.

He ended up pleading down from manslaughter 2 to dangerous driving causing death.  He spent less than 1 year in prison.  

Anything can be used as a weapon, and just becuase firearms are "en vogue" with the criminals/gangbangers the laws shouldn't be changed to hurt legit owners.

[StSanta]

Toad:

Well, the other side of the coin is now you have intent, great chance of succes, little risk and serious consequence to the target in the hands of people who otherwise wouldn't dare do anything. I.e the "crime of passion" shootings. Both two sides of one coin, I guess; can't have one without the other.

Agree completely about "never the individual's fault". We all have baggage; those of us that are responsible *deal* with it instead of use it as a bad excuse.

PC'ness is a real bad disease.



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[F4UDOA]

Hello Boy's

Couldn't resist.

A gun only has one purpose. To kill.

A car has only one pupose. To transport.

A knife has many purposes.

A baseball bat is meant to hit baseballs.

When I drive a car I am volentarally getting into the vehical and assuming the risk of driving or being a passenger.

When my neighbor buy's a gun what am I agreeing too? That my neighbor now has the right to shoot me whenever they please?

Could this person try to kill me with a knife? Yes. But I would have the same odds of defending my self against him and surviving weather I am armed or not. The same applies to a baseball bat or crowbar or whatever. Even with a car I can just go inside my house and the threat is over. With a gun my life looses value to some gun nut with a God complex and his "rights".

Oh, and by the way. Charlton Heston has just admitted to having an alchohol problem and having spent three weeks in rehabilitation.
Yipee, guns for everyone. I feel safer already. I sure wish he was my neighbor.


Ripsnort,

If people would do as you say and use their fist then you would see much less violence in the world. But cowardness is the rule in this country and a gun is an easy way to win an arguement when you know you can't win the fight. Deadly weapons? Hardly ever. More people get killed in their bathtubs every year than do in fist fights. I know, why don't we outlaw bathtubs? You gun folk are predictable.


Later

[Ghosth]

Ok I'll throw my bucks worth into the ring.

I'm 47, I've owned guns of one sort or another since I was 14.

I have never in all that time felt the need to directly threaten anyone with any gun.

They have put food on my table, money in my pocket (used to be a fair marksman with the .22) made me feel confident walking into any patch of woods or rough country. I have spent endless hours of enjoyment shooting at everything from clay pidgeons to live pidgeons, and bucks to beer bottles.

The reason we have problems with guns today has nothing to do with guns. It has everything to do with respect.

Anytime a tool is missused the potential for damage exists. The more powerfull the tool the greater the potential damage.

Lets go back to teaching respect and peacefull ways of settling our differences.


 

[Toad]

Ah! F4! We knew you'd be back! Welcome!

FIFTH TIME, F4.......

So, come on, cut to the point...if we register, ballistic fingerprint, background check, ad nauseum...

Are you going to stop? Will you agree to and vouchsafe our rights to own and use guns in a traditional sporting manner?

[Maniac]

You have to have an driving license to drive an car.

To own an gun you dont need nothin...



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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

[F4UDOA]

TOAD,

Yes, and then I'll probably go out and buy a gun. I have said I am on the fence about owning one personally but I do not wish to contribute to the national problem of rampant abuse of a "Right". I too grew up with firearms. I starting shooting when I was 10yrs old. I really enjoy it. I also have family in Israel (where I am going in to weeks) and when you walk around on their streets you see 18tr old Girls and Boys walking around with Uzi's and Mac 10's.
Even on the beaches. I will take a picture and post it when I get back. I do not think the problem is guns in this country. I think it is the people in this country are the problem. Israel is a democratic country with big cities and drugs and prostitution and other social problems. But virtually no gun deaths or violent crime(other than terrorism which is rare). So it can work in socioty. The problem is that people in the US have to many social predudices and are by far the most violent socioty in the world.
Do you know that the USA has 5% of the worlds population and 25% of the worlds prisoners? How is this possible? It sounds like Stalins Russia but it's true. I don't know what the problem with people is in this country but legalizing drugs would probably reduce the prison population by half and cut gun violence in half.

But in todays socioty there is no way you can say that it would be a better place if everyone had a gun. It would just make for the largest gun battle in history.

Later F4UDOA

[Udie]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
TOAD,
So it can work in socioty. The problem is that people in the US have to many social predudices and are by far the most violent socioty in the world.

 Yep, gotta change peoples hearts. IMHO that's the only solution to the gun problem. That starts with HONEST debate, like what we're having here  (Image removed from quote.)


Do you know that the USA has 5% of the worlds population and 25% of the worlds prisoners? How is this possible? It sounds like Stalins Russia but it's true. I don't know what the problem with people is in this country but legalizing drugs would probably reduce the prison population by half and cut gun violence in half.

Later F4UDOA

 Can we say TOO MANY LAWS?  Our gov seems to like changing our behavior with new laws, ie.. Feds tell states "we want seat belst laws or you get no federal highway money" like they did back in the 80's (good ole democrats) Excuse me, but I sent part of that money to washington, you salamanders. We have SO many now that I doubt any 1 person knows 25% of them.  We've been in a police state for my entire 30 yrs on this earth.  To me it's not much diferent than the KGB asking a Russian citizen for his "papers komrad".  "May I see your ID please sir?, you don't have one? Come with me please your under arrest."  Hasn't happened to me, but it has happened to a couple of friends of mine.

 On drugs, wow I can't believe they'd put somebody in jail with rapist and murderers for smoking pot and yet I can drink myself to death w/ Jack Daniels and there's no problem with that.  Here's my favorite analagy...  "I've never smoked a joint and gone out and started a fight like a drunk" Pot I think should be decriminalized, I don't know about heavier drugs, because they do have a tendency to make people lose track of reality.  I've yet to know/see anybody O/D on marijuana too    Heck if they'd make it legal I bet violent crime would be cut into just because people would be too "tired" to get up off the couch hehe.

 I've had plenty of people call me a hipocrate because of being a THC Republican    But to me they go hand in hand, i want the gov. OUT of my life.  I also know many conservatives that feel the same way that I do about marijuana.  hehe wouldn't that freak the hippies out, if a republican decriminalized pot.

 Sigh, what do you do in a world of 5.5 BILLION people all of whom have their own idividual opinion?  Give em all a gun and let em work it out the old fashion way   j/k

Udie

[Toad]

F4,

Now you have the very beginnings of a compromise.

Once the "anti-gun" <for lack of a better characterisation> manages to assure the law abiding gun owners that the ultimate aim is not confiscation and provides safeguards to that effect then progress will be made.

Until that time, the folks on both the extreme ends of this argument are going to make progress impossible.

I cannot resist, however, pointing out...

Israel and Switzerland. Many military assault weapons in the hands of everyday citizens. Yet low gun deaths and violent crime.

Is it just the gun? Obviously not. We need to look far deeper than that. Simplistic slogans and banal statements about inanimate objects are not going to help.

There is something that has arisen in our free society that is not right. I suggest to you that it starts with the premise that Freedom does NOT allow you to do anything you please. It comes along with a huge amount of responsibility and accountability.

Unfortunately, we have lost that. Therein lies our problem. The Swiss and the Israelis have not.

[ygsmilo]

The debate on guns in America will never be solved on this BBS.

I do enjoy reading all of the different opionions though.

My own views are really screwed up.

I grew up on a farm and was exposed to guns early in life.  I enjoyed hunting when I was younger and did it quite often.  As I grew older hunting became less and less important but my brothers are all still big hunters.

I have shot every kind of gun possible from a .22 pistol to a M-60 mg (dont ask) and still own a family heirlom shotgun.

But I have also seen the damage done by handgun violence, much to close and much to personal.  I do believe in some type of gun control in reference to handguns but not long guns.  Does that make me a hypocrite?

Yes it does but it has to do with my personal experience.

My solution, and I am not joking, If you are convicted of a felony that involves the use of a gun, it is an automatic death penality.

Harsh, unreasonalbe, maybe but if people are not forced be be responsible for their actions--we as a people are heading into the abyss.




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JG 2's current cannon magnet

Milo

[blur]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
TOAD,
<snip>
Do you know that the USA has 5% of the worlds population and 25% of the worlds prisoners? How is this possible? It sounds like Stalins Russia but it's true. I don't know what the problem with people is in this country but legalizing drugs would probably reduce the prison population by half and cut gun violence in half.
<snip>

The more laws you make
The more criminals you create.

      -Tao Teh Ching

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Udie:
But to me they go hand in hand, i want the gov. OUT of my lifeUdie

Welcome to the ranks, Udie!

You are not alone!

"That government governs best which governs least."
--Henry David Thoreau, Civil Disobedience

I had incorrectly attributed this to Thomas Jefferson. Apparently it was Thoreau, although some sources still credit TJ.

Many of the signers of the Constitution are on record against a strong central government; their writings clearly show a preference for leaving most decisions in the hands of the people. Even the Bill of Rights highlights this idea.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Almost redundant aren't they? Two Amendments that focus on restricting the power of the Federal Government. Additionally, note the clear distinction in Amendment X between the "STATES" and the People. Three clear entities here: the United States <Fed>, the States and the People. This is a clear signal that helps interpret the 2nd Amendment.

I don't know how to label myself, but I know I don't fit the traditional party definitions.  

[Udie]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
I don't know how to label myself, but I know I don't fit the traditional party definitions.  

 Are we Republitarians?    

 I wish they'd start a constitutional party. Honestly I wish the politicians would stop lying and the people in the middle would start paying attention.  I don't understand people in the middle.  There are HUGE idiological diferences between democrats and republicans, HUGE diferences.  Don't people know what they believe in?!  

 The main thing is for the poloticians to stop lying though. (YEAH RIGHT!)  We fight a WAR of ideas. In this war our weapons are WORDS. When you take the TRUTH out of the argument, you take away the weapons.  What weapons are we supposed to use if we lose the words?

 Heck, maybe we should make our public officials debate on UBB forums, we have good debate here, and the time it takes to write a paragraph usualy calms me down enough to backspace over the venom and make rational arguements.

 At least we can all come here and debate these isues.  Liberty, what a concept  

Udie


 hehe sorry for taking this thread on a tangent...

[Rude]

Perhaps we need a new party...republicrats?

It's the nature of man guys....it has and always will be the issue. It should be so easy to blame a gun.

I personally feel we have to many freedoms in this country...everyones so worried about their own rights, no one cares about each other anymore...Just ask a homebuilder when the last time he built a front porch on a house was...we all want decks in the back with privacy fences...as long as we have two German cars in the driveway and a bigscreen, I don't care what happens to my neighbor..."A house divided against itself cannot stand".

I love my country, I just get tired of no personal accountability...its always Chuck Hestons fault or this group or that...makes me tired to hear it all.

Guess what boys...its our own collective fault

Cyas Up!