Author Topic: t34 vs tiger  (Read 1599 times)

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
t34 vs tiger
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2005, 08:50:51 AM »
76,2mm gun of T-34/76 was nothing special; it was just slightly better than German  50mm tank gun and maximum penetration at point blank range at 0dgr angle was about 80mm.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/page_59.gif

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
t34 vs tiger
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2005, 11:40:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
The turret/hull sides/rear all the same thickness, 80-82mm on the Tiger. The only thin place is the lower hull sides, 60mm, but these are 90% covered why the overlapped roadwheels, making it a pretty hard shot.

I merely compared the T/85 and T2 on that they came at the same timescale, ie. the T/76 was contemporary to the T1, the T/85's was the T2. But I disagree about the 'huge' mechanical issues, granted such large vehicle have more stress on the drive than a smaller one, but from what I've read on actual Tiger II operations, they seldom had major problems with that, and the cross-country capabilities of both big cats was surprisingly good.


Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger Ausf. E Sd. Kfz. 181

Armor (mm/angle):

Front Turret: 100/8
Front Upper Hull: 100/10
Front Lower Hull: 100/24
Side Turret: 80/0
Side Upper Hull: 80/0
Side Lower Hull: 80/8
Rear Turret: 80/0
Rear Hull: 80/8
Turret Top / Bottom: 25/81-90
Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 25/90
Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 25/90
Gun Mantlet: 100-110/0  

The above armor specs, ARE what the Tiger I had.

Keep in mind bud the T34's that the Germans encountered in late 1943-1945 were of the "Long barreled variety", 1940- late 43 had the "short barrelled version" (we have the short barrel in AH2).  

Keep in mind comparing the Tiger I (Heavy Tank) to a T34/76 or /85 (BOTH are Medium Tanks) is totally pointless.  You cannot compare the two.  If you do, you are anything short of insane.  However, you are yet trying to compare a King Tiger (TigerII) to a /85!!!!   :rofl


Karaya
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 12:06:47 AM by Masherbrum »
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
t34 vs tiger
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2005, 12:58:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
But I disagree about the 'huge' mechanical issues, granted such large vehicle have more stress on the drive than a smaller one, but from what I've read on actual Tiger II operations, they seldom had major problems with that, and the cross-country capabilities of both big cats was surprisingly good.

The Russian report on the Tiger II was scathing in regards to the engine, transmission and axles.

You are right that the big tracks on both the Tigers gave them good cross country capability though.  You'll see stuff claiming the Sherman was better on ground weight, but with some slight research you can easily find that those claims are complete bunk.  The mecahnical issues of the Tiger II were something else entirely though. The Tiger I was much better mecahnically.  The Tiger II would have been better all round if the Germans had been able to put a stronger engine in it and a more robust transmission and axles.

I still think the Panther V G was the best overall tank of WWII.  It might not be as impressive as a Tiger I or Tiger II, but it was a better mainline combat unit all told I think.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
t34 vs tiger
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2005, 12:25:05 PM »
hmm, that russian article has a lot of bull in it, various claims about penetration of the frontal side which is simple hard to believed by the experts. My personal take is that in a typical Soviet style this is a kind of a report prepeared for 'the chief' (stalin) as if you check out Jentz Tiger book, you can find Soviet instructions for the troops how to combat the Tiger. Those state frontally it's a no-no, unlike this article on BF.ru.

Now as for the mechanical reliability, I have very good book here from a hungarian author (a rather young but very serious guy, who is head of the military archives already here), he goes into great depth of Tiger II operations in Hungary by the 503. sPzAbt, and surprisingly you don't find day after day reports of tanks constantly breaking down... I guess with proper care and maintaince by their original owners they were just fine.One could example he qoutes is detail is the first large scale operation in Oct 1944 of the unit when it was first thrown into battle after the refit (btw, the well known Tiger II parade in docfilms is showing this unit in Paderborn just after the refit and transitioning to Hungary), and engaged the Soviets near Debrecen. They did something like a 100 km march, no serious mechanical problems, despite there was some very heavy fighting. So, I am very sceptical about those above than normal mechanical troubles. Mechanical troubles you'd find with all tank units, more commonly with heavy units, but then again, I can only see the 'Tiger II was very unreliable' general claim in the more popular books, but when I look into the excellent, detailed works... nothing like that.

I'd agree on you with the Panther, I like it a lot, more than Tigers that were heavy tanks - a special kind, for special purposes. They were intended, or were special 'mainline' tanks. It kinda got distorted after the war, really, by 'historians', effected by allied recounts that 'everything is a Tiger'.
Btw, afaik Panthers were more troublesome from what I heard. They were mass produced examples, Tigers got a kind of special treatment, better materials were allocated or such. In any case, Jentz qoutes some servicibility figures and indeed the Tiger beats the Panther there (it's as good as the PzIV!), however possibly the Tiger's better survivalibility spoil the stats. And the engine was not that bad, pretty avarage for a WW2 tank, none of those had really powerful engines for their size, compared to what is there today... but that's true for all vehicles of the time, heavy trucks had engines that are fitted today into 'shopping cars'... most countries didn't even develop engines specifically for tanks.
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
t34 vs tiger
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2005, 12:31:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum


The above armor specs, ARE what the Tiger I had.


Good to know, but I'd rather stick to my primary sources like WW2 british firing trials against tiger and other silly stuff...


Quote
However, you are yet trying to compare a King Tiger (TigerII) to a /85!!!!   :rofl
Karaya [/B]


Try to read what I said. I said the Tiger-B was contemporary to the T-34/85, the two entered production and combat at about the same time. True, T-34/85 also met the Tiger I. And the Tiger II also met T-40s. Though luck for the latter.
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
t34 vs tiger
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2005, 01:05:24 PM »
I understood that the Panthers had serious teething issues until the G.  The G I understood to have fixed those issues.

I've never heard anything bad about the Tiger I's serviceability.  The Russian report on the Tiger II sounded reasonable to me though.  They attributed the unexpectedly high armor penetration to slipping German quality due to the state of the German industry near the end of the war, a reasonable claim and it wouldn't affect earlier ones.  The drive train they had issues with as it was apparently the same as the Tiger I's drive train, but with a whole heck of a lot more weight on it and once again that late war German industry possibly causing more quality issues.  That also sounds reasonable.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
t34 vs tiger
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2005, 01:55:43 PM »
Hmm, the drive train was not exactly the same as in the Tiger I - you can't really imagine they just stuffed the same thing into the Tiger II ?

Now as for the armor quality, they note two things iirc. Decline of molybdenium content and replacing it with vanadium, plus decreased plate hardness.. sounds bad?

Well... most alloys in metallurgy can be replaced by another to get the same properties (japanese were masters in this), and basically more alloys do not mean better qualities, just easier manufacturing to get the same qualities, ie. the process is more error-tolerant. Now as far as vanadium goes, it's one of the best alloys existing for armor, so it was actually an improvement. The reason they don't use it much is because it's expensive, cost was not an issue for the germans since they had vanadium, but less molybden, and they had a good metal industry that introduced better mechanical-working of the plates, so they had equal quality - flawed examples got more numerous though, since the production process was more sensitive now. The Russkies used a lot, and came up with very hard plates - which often cracked even when they'd easily reject smaller projectiles, T-34 plate tests done by the Germans showed this vs. 50mm gun.



And as for armor hardness 'decline' goes, it's really a sand in the eye. Thicker plates are always 'softer' than thin ones because they resist then better without cracking... that's a general rule. As for the shooting tests, I don't really need to comment, just look at the pictures, they kept it shooting until it fell apart, what's the surprise in that? If hit repeatadly on the same spot, any armor would fail sooner or later. The frontal armor shots are of suspect as well, they claim 88, 100 and 122mm penetrations. But on front of the turret there's only two : the 88 and probably the 100mm one, both capable AT weapons of this; the 100mm one is a bit of a 'cheat' tough, they removed the gun mantlet which protected the aiming slit, and hit the armor at this opening, where it naturally weaker. Probably the russkies got one early example that still bear it's child diseases, plus they couldn't maintain it properly, fixed it with cannibalized spare parts and stuff..

And I ask again, if they penetrated the armor so easily, why did they tell the troops different, ie. do not attack it from front, only from sides with special tungsten ammo and close range? Perhaps because the 'shoot the tiger to pieces and document with sad photos' was to make the high brass (and today's russian nationalists) happy, whereas troops on the front needed real information?

BTW, the battlefield.ru site had at a time posting pictures of 'destroyed german afvs'. Some of these were very poor fakes, with little black dots retouched onto the abandoned tanks as 'penetrations'. There was one clear case where a 'knocked out by soviet fire' Tiger was montaged from two different photos (turret and hull). The site owner was probably innocent, he bought the book with the pictures in russia, but this gives some idea how much welcome is the idea in Russia to rewrite things into something nicer..
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 02:00:43 PM by Kurfürst »
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
t34 vs tiger
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2005, 02:03:00 PM »
Perhaps.  It is always best to view documents from totalitarian regimes with some degree of sceptisism and the Russians under Stalin were standouts even among totalitarian regimes in that regard.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
t34 vs tiger
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2005, 05:29:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
Good to know, but I'd rather stick to my primary sources like WW2 british firing trials against tiger and other silly stuff...




Try to read what I said. I said the Tiger-B was contemporary to the T-34/85, the two entered production and combat at about the same time. True, T-34/85 also met the Tiger I. And the Tiger II also met T-40s. Though luck for the latter.


And you think I pulled the armor specs out of my a**?   Please, post the reply to Achtung Panzer!  and the host of authors (of books I have) that have the identical measurements.  

I read what you said.  I just happen to know what I'm talking about.  Enjoy life.

Karnak, he ain't worth the time.

Karaya
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC