Chases High

[DoKGonZo]

Yeah ... I think we're basically in agreement.

The thing I think we need to realize is that vultching and gangbanging have always been, and will always be, part of the game. The rewards system won't stop either. What we can strive for, though, is to have the reward system do a better job of promoting other styles of gameplay.

ToD may fix this. I dunno. I haven't looked close enough at it yet. The MA is still where people "make their bones."

[Sable]

The only way vulching would ever go away is if people stopped upping from vulched fields, or if they gave the airfields an ack package representative of a late war german airfield - (lethal enough that you would stand a real high chance of getting shot down on your first pass or two).

And gangbanging and hording will never go away.  One change I could think of that might mitigate it would be if there was an icon limit which restricited the number of icons that were displayed - so if there were say over 10 aircraft in close proximity it would only show you the nearest 10 icons or something to that effect.  This would simulate the confusion of being in the middle of a swirling ball of fighters - and if you get the typical 15+ vs. 4 base attack, many of the would be gangbangers are now going to be struggling to spot their targets amongst their fellow horde members.  Meanwhile the outnumbered few will still be able to clearly spot the closest threats - and it now becomes very profitable for guys from the outnumbered side to up from a nearby field and start picking off members of the "SA reduced" horde.  

This would give the outnumbered a leg up (and a historical one - there were many cases were one or two fighters could score big against large disorganized formations, because the latter were spending so much time avoiding running into each other that they were bounced easily), and cause many of the gangbangers to go elsewhere - they would quickly get bored of looking at a sky full of friendlies and get bounced by guys who were sneaking up on them easily.

One thing that might make a neat addition to this would be some sort of "formation" command that would allow groups to formate on one pilot.  The effect would be to remove the fellow members from the "icon limit" - the kicker would be to have this "formation" function turn off if the pilot strayed more then say 600-800 yards from the formation lead.  In this way you could get an organized group of aircraft over a target without blowing all your SA - but as soon as the formation broke up for a big furball you would be back to the basic icon limit (thus keeping people from just creating one big country formation or something and "gaming" the system).

I'm sure that would require way too much coding, but it would be neat to see people actually flying in formation, and avoiding the current vulching horde technique.

[DoKGonZo]

Not showing planes wouldn't work. But not showing the neon except on the dozen nearest planes could prove interesting. The vultchers could still see planes rolling down the runway, but the process of reducing the field to that state would become more complex if you had such overwhelming odds.

Has there been any studies on how many targets the typical fighter pilot could track without electronic assistance?

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


I agree, but I also think that the arena has hit a critical mass as far as numbers go.  Back when I first started flying AH in very late beta, far fewer people played the game.  That meant a tighter-knit community, and it also meant that reputations were easier to earn (or be stuck with).  We knew who the vulchers were, who the timid cherrypickers were, and who the furballers were; the labels came easily, and you couldn't hide what you did from anyone.  Respect was the commodity, not perks or "attaboys."

Now the effort required to make a name for oneself has increased dramatically with the ten or twenty-fold increase in arena numbers.  Since players invariably attempt to find the easiest way toward a goal, and since the arena now renders most players anonymous and unable to carve out a reputation, things like hording, vulching, and the like become the easiest ways to gain recognition.  With so many people in the arena, it also becomes the only really feasible way to measure players against one another when you have so many different names.  Plus the ease of gaining perks and vulch/horde kills means that perks and "attaboys" have become the new commodity.  This drives behavior accordingly.

-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]

Nice observations. I think people are motivated by simply having fun moreso than becoming popular,  questing for reputation or recognition in a video game. I don't know many people that would be willing to devote their precious discretionary free-time playing AH in a way that was not fun for them simply to impress or earn some highly subjective measure of respect from others over the internet. That is not to say some do not enjoy some form of recognition, but I think that recognition is just something that comes incidentally from being naturally good at whatever it is the individual personally finds fun. Earning recognition is not a prime source of motivation in and of itself. If people did things to attain a reputation or recognition that they did not find fun I am doubting they would be motivated enough to be good enough at it to garner the attention they seek. I definately don't think removing a merely incidental recognition reward or adding another form of incidental recognition reward would motivate people to fly in a way that they do not personally enjoy or derive pleasure from.

Zazen

[Sable]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Not showing planes wouldn't work. But not showing the neon except on the dozen nearest planes could prove interesting. The vultchers could still see planes rolling down the runway, but the process of reducing the field to that state would become more complex if you had such overwhelming odds.
 

That's exactly what I was thinking - keep the plane there, just turn it's icon off.

[DipStick]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
What we can strive for, though, is to have the reward system do a better job of promoting other styles of gameplay.

I've always thought a "reverse perk" system would be cool.

Something like everybody starts flyin only 1945 or the 'perked' planes we have now, then when your score (k/d, k/h, etc... / 4) get high enough you only can fly 1943 planes, get better only 1942 planes, etc... That way the noobs or unskilled would be flying the fast rides and the better players would fly the old planes "like a badge of honor".

It would create alot more variety of planes used and seen in the arena and add some 'fun' to the game again. Plus it might help to even things out between the lesser skilled and the uber pileits.

Food for thought anyway.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by DipStick
I've always thought a "reverse perk" system would be cool.

Something like everybody starts flyin only 1945 or the 'perked' planes we have now, then when your score (k/d, k/h, etc... / 4) get high enough you only can fly 1943 planes, get better only 1942 planes, etc... That way the noobs or unskilled would be flying the fast rides and the better players would fly the old planes "like a badge of honor".

It would create alot more variety of planes used and seen in the arena and add some 'fun' to the game again. Plus it might help to even things out between the lesser skilled and the uber pileits.

Food for thought anyway.

That would be an interesting experiment.

[DoKGonZo]

I personally don't mind flying older stuff ... but remember the torrent of grape juice that hit the fan with ENY went into effect and folks couldn't fly the P51D and La7. I'm afraid a lot of players either don't want or can't handle  the challenge of learning other planes. And folks would just comit sewercide to get their rankings down if it meant being able to fly "their planes" again.

Maybe have a sliding scale on the boast messages. Like you need to land at least 5 kills in a La7 or Spit 16 to get a boast message broadcast, 4 kills in a P51D or D9, and so on. I have a lot more regard for the person who lands 2 kills in a Yak9 or P51B than the one who lands 7 in a Tiffy.

I think there's some combination of changes that could have a positive effect. I really like the idea of only showing neon for the 12 closest planes. One of those lost art skills is being able to read what's going on in a cloud of dots without having all that heads up info.

[Sable]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
One of those lost art skills is being able to read what's going on in a cloud of dots without having all that heads up info.

I've been playing around with this lately ... found that you can bounce a heck of a lot of people if you stay out of icon range until you get into the sun and make your approach from there.

[DrDea]

Id much rather have a hair on fire white knuckled 3 minute dogfight,win or lose than a plebian 12 run vulchfest.

[Lye-El]

If you are seeing boast messages you must care about them. They get turned off when I log in. They just take up text space.