"I'm not afraid of execution!"

[gatt]

Originally posted by VoiceOfThePast
"Law" has always been enforced by the gun, and the people with guns dictates the "Law". Always has, always will.

[ironic mode on] Wrong .... its the people with the "longest" gun who dictates the law [ironic mode off]. And write history, usually. These two things combined make reading and re-reading history very interesting.

[gatt]

Torque, howdy! I miss your F4U-1C and the Pony Express in the arena.

[VOR]

Originally posted by Torque
but of course tho during the 80's when saddam was at the apex of his genocidal campaign and overtly contravening the geneva convention, he was coddled by the neocons and complicity was the course of the day. this belated moral outrage only further exposes the hypocrisy and moral vacuum in which the neocons dwell.

You're right. Since nothing was done about it in the 80's, nothing should be done now or in the future.

Saddam was "coddled" all right, from about 1992-2002.

[Saintaw]

blah blah blah... I don't think "he" has access to this BBS anyway, so WTFC?

[Suave]

Voice of the Past guy is right. Might decides who's right, the law of the jungle is the only one that applies ultimately, always has been and allways will be like that. Just be happy that the apes with the biggest clubs now are benevolant ones.

Were law stops war begins. Many allied leaders would've been tried and found guilty of war crimes had the allies lost the war. General Lemay even said this before the war was over.

[Suave]

A note of interest on geneva conventions. Many of the military and intelligence personel who defected from DPRK and USSR in the '80s had no knowledge of the geneva conventions and the laws governing warfare.

You think their leaders wanted them to know that if they surrendered they would be treated well as POWs ?

[lazs2]

""Law" has always been enforced by the gun, and the people with guns dictates the "Law". Always has, always will."

this much I agree with... seems odd when people who know this try to disarm their neighbors and themselves  tho.    

lazs

[Gunthr]

This is not moral relativism, but reality. I know that Saddam is the bad guy and that the US are the good guys in this conflict, but morals only apply if the good guys win. If Saddam had won none of this would have mattered.

The TRUTH exists.  Take for example, one of Saddam's boys, the addicted one, who enjoyed feeding innocent people feet first into a plastic shredder.

I hope you don't believe that this act is not intrinsically wrong - so long as Saddam wins the war.  That is relativism.

Kids who's parents don't teach them right from wrong are subject to this condition later on in life when they are adults.  They become easily confused.

The observation that victors in war write the history books or that the powerful are able to impose their will on the weak doesn't change the fact that what is truley wrong, is wrong, no matter who may be the victor.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Gunthr
The TRUTH exists.  Take for example, one of Saddam's boys, the addicted one, who enjoyed feeding innocent people feet first into a plastic shredder.

I hope you don't believe that this act is not intrinsically wrong - so long as Saddam wins the war.  That is relativism.

That article that first put forth that story was never sustantiated.  And it was supposedly Saddam who did it, not one of his sons.

[DoctorYO]

Torture is the issue

Gunthr....    who will be held accountable for this...  where does the buck stop..

"Multiple blunt force injuries. Abrasion in upper right forehead. Abrasion on right lower forehead above eyebrow. Multiple contusions on right cheek and lower nose, left upper forehead, back of head. Abrasions on chest, lower costal margin. Contusions on arm, elbow, forearm, wrist, upper inner arm, groin, inner thigh, right back of knee and calf, left calf, left lower leg. Cause of death was pulmonary embolism due to blunt force injuries."


http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/     this is only the tip of the FOIA iceburg..


Rumsfield says the buck stops with Lyndie England and other enlisted pee ons  "a few bad apples" I think was his comment    these death reports show otherwise..



If you know what the doctors are describing some of this is pretty graphic and torturous..

Now for everyone of those that are listed homicide (even the ones that arn't) do you think their families like america or not..

Just read your daily paper for your answer...  news today lists 59 wounded / dead   vs 2 dead suiciders..   with attrition like that how are we going to win this bloody war.. (today it was iraqis who got it..tomorrow who knows..)

when you have explosives costing $50 take out several million in logistic costs not to mention morale that is not a winning equation for total victory as the administration is currently peddling

Im curious your response on both issues..   the torture and whos accountable and the current status of the iraq war.

Saddam trial is just a distraction..    


DoctorYo

[Gunthr]

From my point of view it is an obvious wrongdoing, but your following statement kills your own argument …


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gunthr
Kids who's parents don't teach them right from wrong are subject to this condition later on in life when they are adults. They become easily confused.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I disagree.  My point is that truth exists, and kids should be enlightened to that fact.

[Gunthr]

Dr. Yo;

I guess I see it different than you.  I would never argue for the morality of war (although I would argue that it is sometimes necessary)

I won't address your statistics; I don't know where you got them from, but I will say that, if true, I am not surprized.  Still, we can't condone murder or needless torture.

The interesting question, the underlying question, is your politics and mine.  We both observe the same phenomena, and draw conclusions that are 180 degrees from the other, at least on the issue of torture, and probably, what constitutes torture, as well as whether or not we should be over there in the first place.  So... this is America.  We can disagree.

[Gunthr]

Truth does exist, but truth isn't "good" or "wrong". Truth just is. How we interpret the truth is entirely subjective. Given the choice to save one out of two people from certain death the perceived morality of your choice will differ greatly depending on if you ask the guy who gets to live or the guy who gets to die. - VOTP

I disagree.  The truth is always "good."  To me, truth and love is what God is.

I question your example of the two individuals, one of whom may die.  In your world of relativism, you assume that there is no right, no wrong, and no truth.  Yet one individual may choose to die so that the other may live.  This is not explained in your construct.

[moot]

Or how to devoid a thread of any arguability.

[SirLoin]

Originally posted by Gunslinger

Sadam comitted among others crimes of genocide and he is answering for them in a joke of a trial.

Rumsfeld and Bush sr should be seated next to Saddam as co-defendants...After all they supplied him with the WMD and didn't give a rat's prettythang when he used it on Iranians/Kurds.

It was only when they needed an excuse to go to war did Bush say"He used WMD on his own people!!"..btw..Kurds are not "his own people"