Author Topic: Kyoto Protocol  (Read 3659 times)

Offline funkedup

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Kyoto Protocol
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2001, 05:51:00 PM »
PS Yoj:

 
Quote
That means applying, making, and selling new technologies

That's the diversion of resources - all the manpower and money spent on developing, constructing, and deploying the new equipment.  It's not free, and it drives up the costs and/or lowers the quality of the product or service that they are trying to create in the first place.

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline Fatty

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Kyoto Protocol
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2001, 05:56:00 PM »
So, a show of hands please.

Who's country has actually ratified Kyoto?  I know, I know, it's only been what, half a dozen years.  These things take time, and if the US lead the way, etc, etc.

What you have is a political game that allows some leaders to blame the lack of ratification on the US, plead for the Kyoto standards, all the while knowing it will not happen and not actually even wanting it to happen.  Otherwise, they're certainly welcome to take the lead and sign on.

You're right Santa, it's got nothing to do with ganging up, it's got everything to do with having a convenient scapegoat for their own inactivity on the issue.

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2001, 06:06:00 PM »
YOJ wrote:
Not a fair comparison Krusher.
------------------------------
who said I was fair !

How is this? I will be fair and buy the first round at the CON   :)

Rooms reserved
CON paid for
Airline passes printed out
Vacation approved

I did just read that Seattle is number one in Air delays now at 30+ minutes so I will probably need a drink hehe

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2001, 06:12:00 PM »
I work at a  Power Generation Station owned by PG&E industries and it is a zero emission plant.

There are 9 cooling towers and all water is recycled throught what is termed zero discharge ( basically a water treatment plant).

All ash and emisions are run through what is basically a huge catalytic converter. Then the remaining contents are filtered through a "bag house" where are air borne particles are collected in huge filters. The contents are trapped and huge blowers continually change the direction of the airflow and all the particles (ash) are blown to an ash silo.

It is then dumped into railcars and otr Tractor trailers. Most is shipped back to the mine where the original coal came from and is used to fill in what was removed. Some is bought by various industries for commercial use.

This plant is hardly a "cutting edge design" and is over 15 years old. New generating stations have access to up to date technology and are even more clean.

American industry has indeed been responsible for "polluting" the planet but no more or less then industry world wide.
 
 
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In 1998, EU citizens produced 2.4 metric tonnes of carbon per person compared to a figure 5.5 tonnes for inhabitants of the US.
 

Now doudt about those figures. The fact is I drive an hour and a half to work 6 days a week (most weeks). The size and the distances from place to place in the US make this a necessity. And in my case it was the same enviromentalistic who complained and moaned over every area that was considered for developement of that plant.

It takes 13 -15 hours driving time to get to the Washington DC (US capitol) from where I live. There are 270 million people ( guess but somewhere close ...on the low side if anything) Very few of them willing to give up their lifestyle because the rest of the world deems it so using "suspect science". Bill Clinton never had a mandate from the American citizens to enter this treaty and niether does GWB.

Offline jihad

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« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2001, 06:23:00 PM »
Its not fair to tell the less developed countries "sorry, you started too late, so you're not allowed to ever become developed"

<gags and chokes>

This kind of PC drivel is a big part of whats wrong in the modern world.

Personally I could give a diddly if the Chi-Coms or India EVER catch up to the rest of the world in technological or industrial capacity.

They chose to live/govern under a diddlyed up corrupt political system and they're reaping what they sowed with their bellybutton backwards ways.

Now all the touchy feely dumb tulips in the world like to think we owe them something?

It took the citizens of the U.S. 200+ years to rise to our current levels of industrialization and now they want us to give away the benefits of it.

Sheesh!

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2001, 06:33:00 PM »
Well, the test will be to see who does ratify the deal, now that it has finally been agreed. It's currently at around 30 countries, I believe.
The new watered down treaty looks a lot better. It allows for carbon sinks, which means more forests, and doesn't propose such heavy cutbacks in emissions.
The US could do a lot more, for example increasing mileage for cars, making industry more efficent etc, without hurting the economy at all, if it's done gradually.
The California legislation on zero emissions vehicles shows that laws forcing people to change quickly don't work.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2001, 07:24:00 PM »
Good point Wotan.  And don't forget that USA led the way in automotive emissions control.  It wasn't until the late 1980's that European countries adopted emissions standards that the US had in the early 70's.  And in the last 5 years the USA has again led the world by mandating onboard diagnostic systems.  The same goes for power generation and many other industries where combustion happens.

Offline Dawvgrid

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« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2001, 03:33:00 AM »
Quote
 
Good point Wotan. And don't forget that USA led the way in automotive emissions control. It wasn't until the late 1980's that European countries adopted emissions standards that the US had in the early 70's. And in the last 5 years the USA has again led the world by mandating onboard diagnostic systems. The same goes for power generation and many other industries where combustion happens.
How come you still are the worst polluter?

Offline Dawvgrid

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« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2001, 03:34:00 AM »
Good point Wotan. And don't forget that USA led the way in automotive emissions control. It wasn't until the late 1980's that European countries adopted emissions standards that the US had in the early 70's. And in the last 5 years the USA has again led the world by mandating onboard diagnostic systems. The same goes for power generation and many other industries where combustion happens.
Quote
 

How come you still the worst polluter?

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2001, 08:02:00 AM »
Eagler wrote:

Let's all live in mud huts, eat wild berries, and oh yeah - give up ur pc. You first StSanta Sorry I don't think Kyoto is worth the paper it was printed on. Did they kill trees to print that? Oh my ....

heh eagler, it's a common misconception that concern about the environment cannot be combined with a healthy aggressive capitalistic mindset. It can. I'm *all* for development - I'm a science freak myself. Applied science is fascinating to me - indeed, I find myself attracted to most things in science, with the exception of chemistry  :).

Implementing an agreement that seeks to *limit* emissions but one that still ensures a competitiveness is GOOD in my book. I used to live in Sweden and every time I go there, I'm still saddened when I see vast areas of forest dead for acid rain. Or when I moved ot another place and when I came back to visit and wanted to go fishing in a lake I spent most of my childhood fishing and bathing in was totally dead, just a few years later.

Ding, we're not screwing ourselves. the EU has been able to keep up with the US despite horrendous socialistic systems in place here and incredible tax rates. The European countries are actually quite strong financially when combined and very innovative. The Kyoto deal will have a quite limited impact on the economy. It'll cost some, but it's manageable.

Personally, I'm not too fond of the "well HE is not doing it, so why should *I*?" argument. My neighbor isn't picking up the trash he throws around, so why should I? It's all about personal integrity or, exported to an larger scale, national integrity.

It's weird. I can understand why Bush has second thoughts about the deal, and I can fully appreciate his desire to keep a slowing economy from slowing even more. Perhaps once the US economy is going better, the US will be more friendly towards a similar deal. Or perhaps Bush won't be reelected and the new President will have a different stance.

It's odd. I find myself hating Bush's decisions, but I find it hard to hate the man himself. I like the way he doesn't try to hide what he's up to - well, or the appearance he creates that he isn't. He appears honest enough about what he believes in - even if that is diametrically opposite to my personal values from time to time. Still, some of his decisions, such as this one, will affect me, so therefore I feel I have a legitimate reason to critisize or cheer his decisions.

Offline Fury

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Kyoto Protocol
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2001, 08:29:00 AM »
I heard this morning that Seattle WA intends on meeting the Kyoto Protocol even though the US will not be part of it.

Offline bigUC

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« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2001, 08:31:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan:

All ash and emisions are run through what is basically a huge catalytic converter. Then the remaining contents are filtered through a "bag house" where are air borne particles are collected in huge filters. The contents are trapped and huge blowers continually change the direction of the airflow and all the particles (ash) are blown to an ash silo.

It is then dumped into railcars and otr Tractor trailers. Most is shipped back to the mine where the original coal came from and is used to fill in what was removed. Some is bought by various industries for commercial use.
They make freeze-dried coffee out of it.  Just got a cup from a vending-machine. <pheeew>   :mad:
Kurt is winking at U!

Offline Fatty

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Kyoto Protocol
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2001, 10:49:00 AM »
Good for Seattle, unless you start seeing more companies leave, leaving them without the massive tax revenues that make them feel their actions don't have an economic impact.

Offline Ripsnort

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Kyoto Protocol
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2001, 11:07:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fury:
I heard this morning that Seattle WA intends on meeting the Kyoto Protocol even though the US will not be part of it.

But but this is La La land here, tree hugger central, San Francisco North (housing costs, taxes unbearable)..in addition to that, they are trying to pass a tax bill that will rank us higher than New York for state income tax (in forms of 9 cents a gallon increase in gas, 2% increase in new/used car sales tax, an addition sales tax (already at 8.9%) and many more variables...you see, its not even going to get voted on by the taxpayers because the Dems are trying to prove that "Big Brother knows better"....its more like Big Brother has failed to do alittle city planning over the last 20 years since we;ve had our biggest economic boom since the 60's.

  :mad:

Offline Yoj

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Kyoto Protocol
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2001, 11:31:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher:
YOJ wrote:
Not a fair comparison Krusher.
------------------------------
who said I was fair !

How is this? I will be fair and buy the first round at the CON    :)

Rooms reserved
CON paid for
Airline passes printed out
Vacation approved

I did just read that Seattle is number one in Air delays now at 30+ minutes so I will probably need a drink hehe

No doubt - but as the guest I couldn't think of letting you buy the first one   :)  Wish we had a few more of the old crowd coming.

- Yoj