Author Topic: V-1 "Buzz Bomb" KILLS  (Read 3969 times)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #120 on: January 23, 2006, 08:43:31 PM »
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You are writing a book, Crumpp.


Yes.   I promise that won't be in it, Milo.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Sable

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« Reply #121 on: January 23, 2006, 10:46:02 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp

You have a request from supply but nothing from the Operational HQ ordering the use.

Again, the document that dictates the ALL the types of fuel authorized in USAAF aircraft by type does not list 100/150 grade as authorized.

T.O. 02-1-38 Specified and Alternate Grade Fuel for Aircraft-Engine Combinations (2 Oct 1944, rev. 10 Feb 1945, rev. 20 May 1945)

A Technical Order would have most certainly been issued to cover the fuel usage along with instructions on the modifications to the aircraft.

All the best,

Crumpp


While the 150 octane fuel may not appear on the approved list in that technical order, we can see from evidence that the highest levels of command in the ETO and USAAF approved of its use.  The engines were tested with the fuel at higher boost levels and it was found to be satisfactory.  The fuel was tested operationally, and afterwards the 8th AF requested that it be supplied to it's fighter groups.  Men who flew and worked on airplanes for the 8th AF's fighter groups specifically mention modifying the aircraft, and using the fuel and higher power settings operationally.  We have photos of aircraft remarked for use with 150 octane fuel.  And we have documents from the USAAF supply command in europe stating that the 8th used 150 octane, and was modifying every replacement fighter they recieved to use that grade of fuel.

From Mike and Neil's web site:

Here  we have a memo from Eisenhower, Supreme Commander in theater specifically requesting the components to produce 150 octane fuel in the UK for the express purpose of improving fighter performance.

Here we have Hap Arnolds reply, stating that their tests concur with the 8th's results and suggesting they proceed with caution with the Allison engines.

 Here we have the test results from material command showing that the V-1650 (P-51's merlin) will operate at the higher rating with 150 octane fuel.  You can also find these same docs for the Allison and Pratt & Whitney engines of the P-38 and P-47.

Here  we have test results from Wright Patterson with the ultimate recommendation:

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A.   It is recommended that the war emergency rating of the V-1650-7 engine as installed on the P-51B airplane and using 44-1 fuel be increased to 75 in. Hg. manifild pressure and 3000 RPM.


Once again we can find the same recommendations for the P-38 and P-47.

These tests, along with the operational squadron tests obviously sold 8th fighter command, as we can see that they requested the fuel be delivered to the 8th FC stations .

With regard to modifications to the aircraft, note that it says:

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3.      The modifications necessary on the planes, to obtain the maximum efficiency from the fuel, can be carried out on the airfields during normal servicing of the planes between missions without taking them out of service. It is understood no special equipment or parts are required for the present change over, but the PPF project equipment should come forward from the U.S.A. as it may be required later.


We've aleady talked about supply, so I won't go into that except to point out  this  document.  Note paragraph c.

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During the week ending 18 June 1944, 100 octane gasoline in our storage tanks was replaced by the 150 octane grade.


Note that no P-51s took part in the testing by 3 squadrons in spring and early summer of 44, and the PEP testing in early 45 was carryed out by the 355th FG.  The 361st, and the other groups noted below would all be using it operationally.

On this  page at the bottom we find statements by pilots and groundcrew of the 357th and 78th Fighter groups describing modifying aircraft for 150 octane, using 150 octane oprationally, and using the higher WEP settings operationally.  

On top of that we have photos of Mustangs in operational fighter groups remarked for use with 150 octane fuel.

From Mike and Neil's site:


78th Fighter Group

And some I found on my own:



353rd Fighter Group





352nd Fighter Group





357th Fighter Group


Finally in the memo from 9th AF that I linked in a previous post it states:

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Eighth Air Force decided to use 100/150 fuel in their fighters ...


and

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All of the replacement fighter aircraft being processed by Base Air Depot Area for the Eighth Air Force, are being equipped with the necessary modifications for use of grade 150 fuel.


In the preceeding posts we debated supply, and it's clear that there was supply.  Here we can see that there was approval for use of the 150 octane fuel at the highest levels of command, that it was tested sucessfully, and that it was used operationally.

To argue otherwise based on the 150 octane fuel not appearing on the "approved" list in some technical order, is much like talking to a person standing before you and arguing they don't exist because you don't have a copy of their birth certificate.

Offline Sable

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« Reply #122 on: January 23, 2006, 10:54:20 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp

Again, the document that dictates the ALL the types of fuel authorized in USAAF aircraft by type does not list 100/150 grade as authorized.

T.O. 02-1-38 Specified and Alternate Grade Fuel for Aircraft-Engine Combinations (2 Oct 1944, rev. 10 Feb 1945, rev. 20 May 1945)



I'm just noticing that the last revision of that T.O. is listed as May 20th, 1945.  After V-E Day.  Do you happen to have an earlier revision of it?  It seems likely that after hostilities ceased, and with accidents on the rise and groups asking to return to 100/130 fuel, that the 100/150 PEP fuel would have been removed.  That would certainly fit with the other evidence presented above, and with Freeman's summary of 150 octane useage.

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #123 on: January 23, 2006, 11:23:41 PM »
We need to come up with a name for when a thread becomes a Crumpp against the everyone else brawl
or maybe superimpose bruce lee's face on one of these icons to denote the fact

Offline JAWS2003

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« Reply #124 on: January 23, 2006, 11:59:34 PM »
Are this pictures autentic ? They look a bit strange. Isn't a photoshop job? :confused:




Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #125 on: January 24, 2006, 12:16:03 AM »
Somewhere in the UK National Archives is a post war (just) document proposing excess 150 grade be reblended down to a lower grade.

Leaves 3 possiblities -
1) There was an excess of fuel at the end of war because of higher production.
2) There was an excess of fuel at the end of war because of lack of use.
3) Both the above.

Draw your own conclusions based on the rest of the thread.
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Offline AKA_TAGERT

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« Reply #126 on: January 24, 2006, 12:40:22 AM »
WOW! Great summary Sable! Thanks goes out to you and milo for pulling all this togther and to MW himself for taking the time to put all this info up on his websight! S! To you all and thanks!

Offline Sable

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« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2006, 12:43:03 AM »
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Originally posted by JAWS2003
Are this pictures autentic ? They look a bit strange. Isn't a photoshop job? :confused:
 


The first is taken from pg. 47 of Squadron Signal Publications "Walk Around P-51D" by Larry Davis.  ISBN 0-89747-360-4

The second can be found at http://www.web-birds.com/8th/353/mcaffee.jpg.

Offline Sable

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« Reply #128 on: January 24, 2006, 12:50:26 AM »
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Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT
WOW! Great summary Sable! Thanks goes out to you and milo for pulling all this togther and to MW himself for taking the time to put all this info up on his websight! S! To you all and thanks!


Well most of the credit I think goes to Mike and Neil.  The first time I read about higher boost levels being run by Mustangs was years ago, reading "Kit" Carson's combat reports describing the use of 72" of manifold pressure.  At the time I thought "Must be a typo, or just a failure of memory - everyone knows that the peak manifold pressure on the Mustang was 67".  But thanks to all of their work we now know differently.  The pictures I found because I saw the shot of the 78th FG P-51 remarked and thought "BS, I've never seen that before and there would have to be others if that was real."  Well after spending a few hours digging through my books and searching the web, sure enough there were others.

Offline Scherf

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« Reply #129 on: January 24, 2006, 04:31:52 AM »
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Originally posted by Sable
To argue otherwise based on the 150 octane fuel not appearing on the "approved" list in some technical order, is much like talking to a person standing before you and arguing they don't exist because you don't have a copy of their birth certificate.


:lol  :rofl  :lol
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #130 on: January 24, 2006, 05:45:45 AM »
We have a Web page:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/150grade/11-2-44-doc.html

And another Webpage that replies "Let's use some caution":

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/150grade/13-2-44-doc.html

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These tests, along with the operational squadron tests obviously sold 8th fighter command, as we can see that they requested the fuel be delivered to the 8th FC stations .


And they certainly did.  Nobody is denying there was great enthusiaum for the fuel.  However it's use was short lived as serious power development problems occurred and it fell out of favor after Feb 45.

That is exactly what Freeman says and the absence of published Technical Orders or technical instructions on the conversion points to this.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #131 on: January 24, 2006, 06:11:22 AM »
There must have been one heck of a lot of 150 fuel in storage with 114,919,000 Impgal produced :eek: for it not to be used.

Yup, be sure, the Brits were idiots for producing so much useless fuel.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #132 on: January 24, 2006, 09:39:55 AM »
Oh, come on Crumpp, EVERYBODY had problems with hi-fi-juices, so they were used when needed. But the Allies sure had stocks of them.
Not much use for them when the LW is flat on the ground is it?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #133 on: January 24, 2006, 02:55:57 PM »
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EVERYBODY had problems with hi-fi-juices


Exactly.  The fuel technology was just not at that level yet.  

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so they were used when needed.


Yes they were used within their specialties.  100/150 grade was best used for short duration high speed flights like a ground attack or interception mission.  It was a good fit for the majority of the RAF's mission profiles.

For the USAAF requirements to fly for hours at cruising speeds on long duration escort mission does not fit the fuels characteristics.

As Freeman points out "loss of power" is a serious issue to any fighter pilot.

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Do you happen to have an earlier revision of it?


No I don't but I am looking for it myself.  I feel the revision's will in fact unlock the mystery.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 02:59:56 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Angus

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« Reply #134 on: January 24, 2006, 04:18:08 PM »
Ehh, Crumpp, although I rather agree on you on the fuel problems, or as you put it:
"Exactly. The fuel technology was just not at that level yet. "

I still slightly disagree. It's not all about the fuel, it's about engines, duration, reliability, maintanence, spares, logistics and all.

Why buy the last HP's on a rape-price if not needed??
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)