Need Help with Jug Reversal

[Schatzi]

Id like to ask for some advice with reversing with a Jug.

Jug vs LA

At the end of the film, my reversal on the LA was... well..... ineffective. What should i have done instead to at least have a fighting chance? (Besides not getting into that position in the first place?)

I was at about 50% fuel, 8 guns, light ammo loadout.

[Booz]

2 options...but the first thing you needed to do was keep the speed once you realized he was following you - you maintained a climb which just slowed you down and let him close quicker, nose level or down a slight bit for speed.

   Option 1: take it nose down harder to speed up back over 300 and keep extending while he closes, when he gets within 800, dump flap, throttle down and get into hard scissors to force his overshoot, get throttle & flap back up full as soon as he's even with you - best if you want to pull him away from the crowd first it, woulda taken him 20 seconds to close

   Option 2: need 2k alt for this more agressive move (which you had), get level, when he's 1.5 away roll over 120^ and split S at that angle back into him right across the water, you know he's going to break so plan a very early lead turn into his break and then you can usually have him flying into a rolling scissors which is to your advantage .... he will get away if he wants (if he just goes up keep the speed again  in your new direction extending and be ready to do this again),  but you get him off your dead 6.
 

Booz

[YUCCA]

IM not good at wording things but.  Why would you bother going verticle that early?  You simply turned too slow too early.  I would have not gone verticle that far out.  I would've leveled out at 300.  If the la7 was 1.5 or beyond and not closing really fast i would've just turned in and merged with him ( which is what i would have done in that situation.  
     If he was 1000 and gaining i wouldve made sure i had at least 300 mph built up then do a gentle turn when he's at 800.  As he gets closer your turn gets sharper.  Always watch his nose to make sure you're just out of firing soloution ( you gotta show a little tail to get hte adv.)  Here's the tricky part at 600 you wanna watch his closure rate (this takes alot of practice.  You then determine whether or not he's chopping throttle to counter your reversal.  
     If you think he's going balls to the walls then keep your thottle at 100 percent.  You should be doing like 275 so drop a click of combat flap and turn real hard when he's about 400 out.  Then soon as he's about 200 go veticle and roll over to the direction he's in and point your guns where he's going to fly.  
      If he doesn't blow past you (because he caught you off gaurd  by chopping this throttle) you will know soon as you go verticle he'll be getting very close to firing soloution.  this is where i do a hard spiral climb turn about 45 degrees while in the spiral climb dumping full flaps then after you turn hte 45 degrees chop throttle untill he blows off to the side of your wings.  Then wep it ( if he continues going verticlle maybe you can follow him for a snap shot.  
     More often than not they just go up just out of firing soloution.  So what i do is watch where they'e gonna fall out of the stall at hang on my prop waiting....... Soon as they fall in front of the business end of my 8 50's they're done.  There are many things that i do that i dont even think about when i do them but that is the jist of it.

[YUCCA]

I actually have a link i can give you shatzi that shows several overshoots for p47.. It's exclusively for 56fg members buuuut.  Since i like ya my fiery german temptress email link below my sig andi  shall send it.

[Schatzi]

Thanks for the heads up guys. What i actually did was watching him, trying to judge his E state, think "sh**" and "hmmmm" and "what now?" until it was actually too late to do anything useful anymore.... So i basically came up with the most stupid thing to do in this situation.

[Schatzi]

Originally posted by YUCCA
I actually have a link i can give you shatzi that shows several overshoots for p47.. It's exclusively for 56fg members buuuut.  Since i like ya my fiery german temptress email link below my sig andi  shall send it.

 You got mail Yucca.


Edit: Addy in sig: Host unknown. Sent you mine through BBS PM.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Schatzi
Thanks for the heads up guys. What i actually did was watching him, trying to judge his E state, think "sh**" and "hmmmm" and "what now?" until it was actually too late to do anything useful anymore.... So i basically came up with the most stupid thing to do in this situation.

One rule I always expound upon is this: If you are being pursued by a faster fighter and the range in no less than 2k, ALWAYs turn into the attacker. Do not wait until he's closer, reverse immediately. In your case I would have reversed slightly nose down to retain most of my E. After the merge you can be sure of one thing. The P-47 WILL beat the La-7 on the next reverse, because it bleeds E much faster. Drop one notch of flaps just prior to the merge. If the La-7 also reverses immediately, you will get a snap shot.. Don't miss because he will gain a quick advantage if you do.

Another thing, don't dump flaps before you need to, it kills your E and leaves you too slow to do much more than wallow while the La-7 can use his speed to pound you.

My regards,

Widewing

[B@tfinkV]

do not be afraid to simply turn fight the lala.

jug will outfly any lala in most cases.

[NoBaddy]

Going vertical was close to the worst choice you could make. Personally, I would have extended to try to insure a 1 v 1 situation. Then work to get him to turn with me. The key in that situation is DON'T bite on his rope move. The La7 can out climb and out run you. But, if you watch your E state (and he aint too bright ), you can trick him into a turn fight....which you can win.

[Nomak]

Originally posted by Widewing
One rule I always expound upon is this: If you are being pursued by a faster fighter and the range in no less than 2k, ALWAYs turn into the attacker. Do not wait until he's closer, reverse immediately. My regards,

Widewing

I will go ahead and respectfully disagree on that point.

I will actually scrub a bit of speed and draw them in close.... like 600 out.  I know it sounds backward but it really works for me.  Once they are almost in range to kill me I pull hard in a flat turn drawing them even closer but keeping out of thier guns (This part does take practice and feel)  At this point they smell blood and will almost always follow me all the way.  Then I switch from a flat turn to what I like to call a "Break and roll"  I pull verticle and do a kind of "Half Barrel roll"  I can almost always flop over on top of them here.  At this point the E states are almost always close enough that its now an angles fight.  Then I have them playing the game I want to play and it usually ends poorly for them a few seconds later.

In your above scenairo "47 v la"  I will take a Jug at 150 in the vert flaps down over an LA any day.

The thing that drives me nuts is the BnZers.  If you show them some tail they almost always get greedy and will follow.  If you just reverse into them then you have to deal with avoiding the HO and the possibility of them "Extending"  I for one would rather watch paint dry then deal with that crap.

Dave

[Shamus]

One of the problems you had there Schatzi was that Rob53 was in the La5

shamus

[Roscoroo]

Check your PM's dear ...  (Remember these secrets are for Jug members only)
 I've got some great films too








2k reversal lmao ... hell no ...try 800 or less thats the time to get busy and spank them with your jug

[Schatzi]

Originally posted by Shamus
One of the problems you had there Schatzi was that Rob53 was in the La5

shamus

LoL, yeah. And to make it worse, i *knew* it was him, so i counted my chances in a turnfight as very low, hence my (deadly) hesitation on reversing into him. I hoped against hope he might just dissappear .


I think i have to have more confidence in the plane. Im too hesitant to get agressive i think. And too defensive flying gets you killed.

Thanks again for all the helpful tips! Watch out for strangely behaving Jugs in the MA .

[bozon]

P47 is a judo fighter when at a disadvantage. You are slower, climb worse and turn worse than most planes. The only thing you do real good is burn E, and use your opponents speed against him.

Iisten to master Yucca! I also consider 300 mph (IAS) the golden number. I always try to start the reversal around that speed - shallow dive if you have to, you won't build E faster than anybody anyway. When at 300 mph, if he takes his time start a shallow climb but keeping the speed. It's fast enough for hard manuvering and to black them out, but not too fast so they'll blow by and run.

Another thing Yucca mentioned and should be emphisized is that the goal is not flat scissors, but rolling scissors (if they bite). Rolling scissors require less change of direction and more control authority which minimize your disadvantages. So add some vertical component when reversing direction.

If your opponent knows jugs, you are dead.

Bozon

[SirLoin]

i think the best option there would be to ...seeing the la was closing..i would not climb in jug....i'd asap hit 2 notches flaps and roll180.

then dive for sea and let out flaps.

verticle aim for the water hit wep & roll 180 again,he will be following but rollin too.

at the last second pull up & scrape the water wait a sec then hit 1 flap and pull a reversal..he will over shot hopefully.

this is where u better have convergence set long cause by time u stabilize jug he will be 600 and fading.

get the shot or yer ded..