Author Topic: HO clarification  (Read 3710 times)

Offline Flayed1

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HO clarification
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2006, 09:08:29 AM »
LOL this thread is just silly......:rofl    
  I find if someone offers a HO just take it. I usually seem to have better aim then them anyway. :D  Also I find the 9T works well for all my HOing needs I love it when someone comes after me going for a HO in well any plane really. Its like trying to HO a field ACK gun lol and so many times they will go right for it I guess thinking I don't have many guns I couldn't possibly win.
  I used to try to avoid all HO's but usually would get hit what ever way I tried to get out of the way, I survive much more just to take it and kill the HO'er

  Oh and who was that back some where in the thread that said the only HO he ever won was against a goon?  Back in AH1 I had some guy complain about me HOin his goon with my Zeke he was at like 10K with no other NMY in sight to help him. I just had to chuckle at him and ask if it really mattered lol, imop he was a dead goon anyway you look at it.:lol
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 09:11:43 AM by Flayed1 »
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Offline Kweassa

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HO clarification
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2006, 09:48:30 AM »
I'm with Tilt.

  I also take it that there is no such thing as unavoidable HOs. If someone forces the other guy to go into a head-on angle with such perfect timing that there is no time to maneuver out of that way, then by all means that itself is a result of being outmaneuvered. Also, if one tries to move away from the HO by maneuvering aside, but the other guy still forces a shot in then by all means he deserves that kill.

 That being said, my take on the original poster's question is this:

 ...



 Sometimes HOs are indeed frustrating.

The basic premise of combat maneuvering is to survive and shoot down the enemy plane without being shot down yourself. Therefore, anybody who takes a certain bit of pride in his skills, has a basic mindset to respect those who also try to fight it out the right way. The two opponents slug it out in a test of skill, both trying to not get hurt, while hurting the other,

 However, being a game, it is undeniable that there are a considerable number of people who's entire premise of airborne combat is to shoot down the enemy by any means necessary - if it means one's own death. These guys don't fight to survive. They pay no attention to one's own survival, and their prime objective is to shoot down the other guy no matter what happens. It doesn't matter if it's a stupid or suicidal move. They just don't care. They will point straight to the enemy and hold the trigger down, submitting themselves to the mercy of lady Luck.

Now, against these kind of people, the normal concept of ACM doesn't work.

 People who believe in ACM assume that both people are trying to live, to fight it out without being shotdown. So they expect a certain enemy to move in certain logical way. They move around, maneuver themselves carefully, and put the enemy fighter into an E-deprived position. They prepare to go for the final kill.. and what happens is the enemy doesn't try to evade or escape your shots, as he should, if he was a pilot of a sound mind. He just flat turns as tight as possible and comes HOing your way.

 Normally, in real life, people don't do this. Even in games, people who have an proactive mind about achieving victory through superior skill, don't do this kind of stuff. Unless there is a certain amount of reasoning behind taking such a great risk, ( ex..  You are hounded by two 109s in a P-47. You figure your chance is to kill one on the first HO merge with superior firepower, and duke it out with the remaining one..) people are supposed to try to live - and that's when they come predictable.

 But the HO guys are unpredictable. They have the balls to do this kind of stuff because they know they don't die. In one word, it's "gamey" - something that would rarely ever work in real life, but only possible in a game.


...and  that ruins the aura of combat for many people who believe in skill and ACM. They are suddenly rudely reminded that this is a game, and all your painstaking process of learning and practicing real-life tactics, can be so easily nerfed by some twit in a uber plane who doesn't give a shi*.[/color] The whole ACM concept was borne under realistic conditions for realistic engagements... but how do you fight a guy who flies unrealistically, and unwilling to survive, with ACM?

 He turns to get a HO angle everytime you go for a pass, doesn't even try to evade, coming straight at you guns blazing.... This isn't such a problem if you are flying a good maneuvering plane like a Spitfire, which can evade, and a few more maneuvers can land behind the tard 400 yards out.. but when you are in something like a 109 or a 190, against something like a  Spit16... to shoot him down you are forced to try a HO yourself. Either that, or choose to dogfight him to stall speed so that he is squeezed off every last bit of E and can't try the same stunt again.... and yes, you must risk doing it in a plane known to be difficult to manage.


 So basically, when facing a HO tard with a plane that needs some basic disicipline to maneuver, you are almost always faced with a HO. You can always move out of the way, but no matter how you try to gain a safe shooting solution, he comes again facing forward, guns blazing, giving no shi* about survival, no concern for ACM, no care about skill.... and the prospect of the whole attack sequence being stopped and ruined, and sometimes even shot down, by such gamey dweebs, can be just so whoopeeed frustrating.


 It's along the same lines as people hating 2k suicidal deck buffs, suicidal jabos, and "side-winder" pilots.


ps)) "Sidewinders" are those who have pretty decent skills, but flies in a guided-missile attitude.

 These guys don't care about teamwork nor survival. It's the kind of guys who fly N1Ks or Spit16s (huge ammo or uber gun), picks a target, and follows it all the way up the vertical, spraying bullets like Florida squall, and then gets blown out of the sky immediately after shooting you down.

 They know that there are many enemies nearby. They are skilled enough in 1vs1 maneuvering. They have good gunnery. But despite all that, they follow you up the vertical, and don't give a shi* about the dangers of being blown up by other enemies. Just pick a target, and do whatever needed to shoot it down, regardless whether they themselves are shot down in the process.

 Normally, one expects a smart pilot to refuse following an enemy plane up when there are more enemies nearby. But they just come straight at you. He's doing what you would never do, and what one would rarely see in real life. He doesn't care if he lives or dies, all he wants to do is shoot you down.... and fighting these guys can be frickin' damned annoying. Like the HO tards, Sidewinders are made possible only because this is a game, and people don't really die in it.... and that also means being ridiculed by gamey dweebs.... which sucks.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 09:57:07 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Guppy35

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HO clarification
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2006, 10:02:26 AM »
Of course the flip side to this is when you run into the guy blazing away from 1K out coming at you head on, you kinda know that he's just gonna keep going at light speed the other way so as long as you can duck the HO, he's not much of a threat.

When you go nose to nose with the guy who doesn't shoot, you can just about bet the house he's gonna stay and and fight it out.

And there are those shots that I thought were HO's that after looking at the film were actually really good and quick snapshots from the front quarter that some of those guys, who can actually shoot, use when they've got that quick angle shot.

But it's still no big deal in the end cause I get a brand new, factory fresh plane if I die and a brand new life too.  So it's all good :)
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Offline fartwinkle

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HO clarification
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2006, 10:04:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
You either have no clue what you are talking about or are a troll.

Or both.


Perhapes but I never get killed by a HO:)

Offline DoKGonZo

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HO clarification
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2006, 10:28:28 AM »
OK, Tilt. Even if I agree with your opinion that it takes two to HO, even in a low-speed furball, there's still a problem. Why should the player trying to play the game properly (i.e. manouever for a rear-quarter shot) be the one to have to burn energy to avoid the idiot who can do nothing but HO?

When you get low-and-slow, sure, you take whatever snapshot you can - even a HO. Basic instincts. No problem. The problem is - and has always been - this attitude that "the players who know what they're doing can just avoid the HO." Why should they have to? Why should the game be tilted (no pun intended) towards the players who don't want to bother to learn tactics?


Consider a P51 and a La7 merging. They're closing at a rate of at least 600 mph in most cases. The planes are small - think about how small a car looks 100 yards away (a football field) - the body of a fighter seen head-on is even smaller. The window of time when the enemy plane is close enough to target on and shoot at is pretty small. This should be an impossibly hard shot to line up if either plane is flying even 5 degrees angle-off, right? Yet in AH these shots are take - and MADE - from out at 800 yards - a half a freakin' mile - even if one player does fly angle-off a little to spoil the HO shot.

Which leads me back to my question - why should you have to duck and roll on a 600mph merge to avoid a shot that should be a 1-in-a-million if you just flew straight past the other guy?

Offline hitech

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HO clarification
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2006, 12:19:50 PM »
Quote
OK, Tilt. Even if I agree with your opinion that it takes two to HO, even in a low-speed furball, there's still a problem. Why should the player trying to play the game properly (i.e. manouever for a rear-quarter shot) be the one to have to burn energy to avoid the idiot who can do nothing but HO?


Who ever said that manouevering for a rear quarter shot is playing the game properly or realisitcly.  Rear quarter shots are just another tradeoff in the all the tatics availible in dog fights. If you belive that the rear quarter is the best tatic for you to use so be it. But if some one else chooses not to go for the rear quater, so be it, if your tatics are better you should win. But to say that someone else can not use a perfectly valid tatic, I.E. HO , as they choose to use it, is just "Plane" silly.


HiTech

Offline Rino

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HO clarification
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2006, 12:26:05 PM »
I think these periodic HO whine threads are great.  Just think of it as
a relief valve where folks can pound their chests and point fingers, and
last but not least pontificate for or against HOs to their heart's delight.

     It doesn't even matter how many times a week one of these gets
posted..it's like fishing with dynamite in a 55 gallon drum :)
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Offline daddog

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HO clarification
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2006, 12:29:02 PM »
I take head on shots, much to the disdain of the superior players who quite often take the time to point out to me they are disapointed with my style. :rofl
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Offline thndregg

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HO clarification
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2006, 12:39:19 PM »
Anyone with children should recognize this song from Shari Lewis.  Appropriate for this thread.

"This is the song that doesn't end,
Yes it goes on and on my friend.

Some people started singing it,
not knowing what it was.

But they'll continue singing it
forever just because,

This is the song that doesn't end.....
Former C.O. 91st Bombardment Group (Heavy)
"The Ragged Irregulars"

Offline Tilt

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HO clarification
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2006, 12:53:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
OK, Tilt. Even if I agree with your opinion that it takes two to HO, even in a low-speed furball, there's still a problem. Why should the player trying to play the game properly (i.e. manouever for a rear-quarter shot) be the one to have to burn energy to avoid the idiot who can do nothing but HO?
 


I would be careful of defining the "manouvre for rear quarter shot" as "trying to play the game properly". A definition that would have stood up better with AW's gameplay model than AH's.

Fear of the forward quarter shot makes all players manouvre accordingly and none of have the right never to expect it.

If we ignore it we all risk the consequences.

If we accept the 180 degree merge we risk those too and should know (like our opponent) that we play a fools game.
Ludere Vincere

Offline Waffle

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HO clarification
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2006, 12:55:32 PM »
// if state_name
if (FIRST DATE?().Equals("YES"))


// else if state abbreviation
else if (DID SHE PUT OUT?().Equals("YES"))

state = (String)feature[columnAlias];

else if (IS SHE  A HO().Equals("YES"))


is that a clarification query?

Offline Tilt

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HO clarification
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2006, 01:36:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Consider a P51 and a La7 merging. They're closing at a rate of at least 600 mph in most cases. The planes are small - think about how small a car looks 100 yards away (a football field) - the body of a fighter seen head-on is even smaller. The window of time when the enemy plane is close enough to target on and shoot at is pretty small. This should be an impossibly hard shot to line up if either plane is flying even 5 degrees angle-off, right? Yet in AH these shots are take - and MADE - from out at 800 yards - a half a freakin' mile - even if one player does fly angle-off a little to spoil the HO shot.

Which leads me back to my question - why should you have to duck and roll on a 600mph merge to avoid a shot that should be a 1-in-a-million if you just flew straight past the other guy?


I think given a high speed rate of closure at 180 degree merge then if you must chance it then its best to start firing at 1K........so when you take your finger off it will be 600 and the shell time to target will be a quarter of that found off an opponents 6.

re duck and roll............

But in truth Shaw offers several alternatives for both the energy and the angles fighter when faced with a potential high speed 180 merge. In none of these does he assume the luxury of a AW combat environment.

ie in none of shaws examples is the opponent allowed to perform his HO

Even given this nearly all the same tactics employed in AW combat come to play after the HO has been declined. Indeed the HO'ing opponent will be tempted to follow your intial manouvre rather than consider the angle and energy out come.

If he declines to follow and zoom then you may have achieved some angle or you may both extend and reconsider your options......something often done in AW too.

If he adopts  an agressive angles strategm then he has left it too late.......he should have been in manouvre before the merge.

I refer to AW not to put words in your mouth. I realise you have not called for its reduced forward lethality. I refer to it because it embodies the style of combat (manouvering for rear quarter) you refered to above whilst creating a HO'less environment. Further the shear wealth of expertise amassed around its combat model makes it a convenient resource when considering alternatives. Knowledge that I know you are very familiar with.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 01:50:28 PM by Tilt »
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Offline DoKGonZo

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HO clarification
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2006, 01:41:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Who ever said that manouevering for a rear quarter shot is playing the game properly or realisitcly.  Rear quarter shots are just another tradeoff in the all the tatics availible in dog fights. If you belive that the rear quarter is the best tatic for you to use so be it. But if some one else chooses not to go for the rear quater, so be it, if your tatics are better you should win. But to say that someone else can not use a perfectly valid tatic, I.E. HO , as they choose to use it, is just "Plane" silly.
 


"Proper" and "realistic" as defined as representing WW2 air combat.

Put another way, if what goes on in AH went on in WW2, then planes would have ended up with massive frontal armor, aft-mounted engines, and gobs of centerline-mounted guns. Because that would optimize the plane for the style of combat that is more the norm than the exception in AH2.

As long as front-quarter shots are easier to get (i.e. require less work and the game makes them easier to acquire) than rear-quarter, there is far less need to learn basic ACM. And that hurts the game as a simulation of the era. If that immersion isn't a priority, so be it.

I can understand perfectly well why players (esp. newer ones) defend HO tactics. Flying a Hurri2C you can run up a pretty nice score and if you would die anyway trying to dogfight then a 2:1 or so k/d HO'ing is fine. You can be "successful." That's obviously a priority for HTC too or new players will get quickly frustrated by their own suckiness.

But lets not kid ourselves into believing that even 1-in-10 A2A engagements in WW2 was resolved on the head-on merge.

Offline dedalos

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HO clarification
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2006, 01:44:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pooface
simple one, and the most effective is to just push the nose down a little if you're going right for each other. its harder to shoot, and won't always work, but you dont loose e, you gain some, which you use right after by doing a straight immelman onto his six, while he begins his turn. you follow in lead pursuit, and turn inside him, closing the gap, and blast him to bits. works a lot of the time for me. and in the event that that doesnt work and the dweeb still manages to get you in ho, you get on 200 and shout at the dweeb for hoing you when you blatantly wanted to fight. most people get very annoyed by HO dweebs, so you're sure to have plenty of support.

remember, its not only how great a pilot you are, but how good you are at putting lame dweebs in their place on ch 200 lol


:lol Do not push your nose down.  Not only you offer him a shot that is not a HO anymore, but you give him the advantage.  

Doing a straight imelman onto his six and blasting him while he begins his turn :rofl

How do you come up with these things?  What planes are you flying?  If the HOer is in a Spit16 and you in 109 who is going to imel faster?  Pussing your nose down at the list will make you faster and make your imel take longer.  Translation, he will be blasting you.

Wana avoid the HO?  Get separation before you get in guns range (vertical or horizontal)  There is no reason to be merging HO.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline dedalos

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HO clarification
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2006, 01:48:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Waffle BAS
// if state_name
if (FIRST DATE?().Equals("YES"))


// else if state abbreviation
else if (DID SHE PUT OUT?().Equals("YES"))

state = (String)feature[columnAlias];

else if (IS SHE  A HO().Equals("YES"))


is that a clarification query?


I dont think that would even compile.  You seem to be a fun of slow coad too :p
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.