Author Topic: What did I do wrong? (Read 696 times)

Gianlupo · « **on:** January 23, 2006, 02:06:39 PM »

Ok, I guess it's time to get some advice from some of the trainer or the better sticks. Here you have a movie of a fight I had yesterday in MA: Dora vs Dora.

I'd like to have your opinion about it, particularly I'd like to know, according to you, if (oh, well, I know I did) and what I did wrong in this fight.

Keep in mind that I'm not used to fly the FW, I usually fly a Ki84; my views are set up so that I can cover the most wide space possible; I use a TM afterburner II, stick and throttle with twisty rudder on the stick; my pilot got wounded in the only time I lost sight of vortex, in a blind spot of my rear upper view (the canopy frame

), and when he blacked out I turned the autolevel on (you can see when it happens by the yellow light in the cockpit).

Looking forward for your comments.

SuperDud · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2006, 04:57:44 PM »

Welp 1st off he started out on your 6 and with an E advantage. Nothing you can really do about that. Luckily for you he couldn't get the kill shot early. After that, he seemed to manage his E better and was able to get top position over you and pick you off at his leasure. I like how you went more aggressive later on in the film and feel you should have done this sooner. If nothing else maybe he'd stall badly or at least meet you for a HO attempt which makes it 50/50 instead of him BnZing you. I think if that darn PW wouldn't have happened the fight might have turned right there. But that's how things go. Overall, you were just caught in a bad situation and did the best you could.

Oh and he might just have a better handle of the FW which would greatly help him.

wetrat · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2006, 05:10:35 PM »

Your first mistake was flying a Dora.

That fight was far too long and boring and there were too many mistakes to list em all

Anyhow, all your mistakes were basically the same. You weren't being proactive enough. You were reacting to his flying, and trying to get an edge that way, which was the wrong approach. Particularly against a guy who's just gonna zoom climb every time he sees trouble. Instead of simply reacting to him and hoping to get your guns around, you should have tried to suck him into an actual fight or reversal. If it were me, I'd have killed him by extending to 2k, starting a lazy turn to get him to commit a bit, cut throttle, and tighten it up.. etc, etc. I would have done exactly what's in the Ki-84 film thread I made.

And you missed your 2 shots that would've killed him. For shame.

wetrat · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2006, 05:22:54 PM »

Here's what I mean. Different planes, easier guns (nose-mounts make things simple), similar situation. Getting bnz'd by a couple guys, I kept going for the exact same thing over and over.. eventually it'll work. It's actually easier to do against someone in the same plane as you... they're much more likely to commit, and a little throttle work will get you inside every time. If I can do it drunk (when I deem it necessary to fly an la7), you can do it no problem

Schatzi · « **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2006, 04:40:45 AM »

OK, Gian, here come my smartass comments you were asking for

.

I agree on the lacking aggressiveness. Watching the film, it looked to me like you werent really interested in shooting him -- more like annoyed because he wes keeping you from enjoying the scenery fully.

Admittedly i never really flew the Dora, so im not sure what the plane is capable of and what not, but since Vortex was flying the same plane.....
After those first two overshoots, id have tried to keep him slow and tangled. Time for a knifefight, you guys were all alone out there.

Later, when the second set of 190s showed up, you "woke" up for a bit and started really going after them, but were already wounded and at a definite disadvantage.

Also, at least thrice you let him rope you, you stalled and lost what little E you had built back.

I wont comment on your gunnery

.

And another thing: Get out of that Luftwaffe stuff and fly a real plane - like the HMk1!!!!

Gianlupo · « **Reply #5 on:** January 24, 2006, 04:41:06 AM »

Dud.... I've written "better sticks"!

Joking, of course, thanks for the replies, guys.

Quote

SuperDud Welp 1st off he started out on your 6 and with an E advantage. Nothing you can really do about that.

Well, I cut the beginning of the fight. I was fighting over an enemy field, during a dive I saw the FW and a Spit jumping on me. I thought "I want to fight the FW, but not with a Spit around", so I put my nose down and headed for friendly field. At the beginning of the clip I posted, I was waiting for the Spit to be well out of range, then I started the fight. Our relative E states weren't that different, about same alt and speed, I burnt my E faster than him, but I wanted to force him to commit to a rolling scissor, he just didn't took the bait and the E difference amplified. But maybe you meant that slight initial difference was enough? Btw, now that you know how it started, maybe the first choice I did was the wrong one? (and, wetrat, no I don't mean flying Dora!

)

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Superdud...he seemed to manage his E better and was able to get top position over you and pick you off at his leasure. I like how you went more aggressive later on in the film and feel you should have done this sooner.

Wetrat If it were me, I'd have killed him by extending to 2k, starting a lazy turn to get him to commit a bit, cut throttle, and tighten it up.. etc, etc. I would have done exactly what's in the Ki-84 film thread I made.

You weren't being proactive enough. You were reacting to his flying, and trying to get an edge that way, which was the wrong approach

Wetrat, I know what you're talking about, I make that move regularly when I fly the Ki, and I saw the movie you posted. I did it even this time... maybe it was just poorly executed. As I said, I wanted to force him to commit to a rolling scissor, so I tried that reversal move, but he just didn't want to follow and pointed the nose up. After failing at that, the difference in our E state was at his advantage (yep, Dud, he managed well his E, I don't know if we can say better, 'cause I used mine to try that), so basically I had to assume a passive role, waiting for his mistake, or for him to be nervous enough to forget caution and finally commit to a knife fight. But I think you guys are right on this point, generally I fly too much on the defensive, instead that on the offensive.

Quote

Wetrat And you missed your 2 shots that would've killed him. For shame.

True. Both because of my bad aim and my poor knowledge of MG151 ballistic. With the Ki, maybe, I would have killed him, I'm more used to its gun (I made some try offline with the .target command to see the drop of the bullets at various dist. at 1 g)

Beside this movie, generally speaking, I feel I need to:

- improve my SA, especially when I have a target in front of me, or when I'm knife fighting someone;

- improve my knowledge of airplane handling at low speed (at or beyond the stall), and I mean both theorically and pratically;

- improve my skills in overshooting/reversal on bandits, starting with them on my six;

- drastically improve my aim: I noticed that most of the time I can easily get on the six of the hostile, but it takes me way too long time to kill him, thus exposing me to attacks from other hostiles.

So, if any of you have suggestions on the above, or if someone else wants to add anything more about that movie, I'll be happy to hear

Gianlupo · « **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2006, 04:57:37 AM »

Hiya Schatzi!

I took me too long to write my previous post, so I miss your reply.

I've already said about the aggressiveness... lol.... he was keeping me from enjoying the scenery???

As for the knife fight, well, as I said that was I wanted

But I wasn't able to have it... I didn't let him rope me, I know what he was doing I wanted to try to put some shot on him to force him fight or, with a bit of luck, to kill him. But, as you said.... I won't comment on my gunnery!

Dora is not a plane where you can turn too aggressively, but we were in the same plane, we just adopted 2 different fighting style: I wanted to turnfight, he didn't. And, btw, remember, I'm not that used to fly FWs.

As for the Mk I..... get lost you dweeb!

Schatzi · « **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2006, 06:05:36 AM »

Well, i just took up a Dora for a training flight or two in the TA. Man, what a brick. "Dora is not an ideal turnfighter" - thats it put rather lightly indeed.

Still, knowingly or not, with those stallouts after trying for a shot you kept loosing what little E you had and enabled him to BnZ you leisurely. The closer your relative E states, the easier for you to force him to turnfight you.

But youre right..... better not listen to a HMk1 professional lawnmower

.

Gianlupo · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2006, 06:23:24 AM »

You *just* took up Dora???? Aren't you working with bulls, today?

Don't get me wrong, lawnmowoman, I asked for your opinion and I do take it into consideration. I know that I forced too much the nose up shots, it's a think that I do often, I think "I can hold it up another little bit" and then I stall.... I have to hone what I call the inner SA (the awareness about airplane speed, altitude, status, etc... not easy, I'd like to have a "speed bar" like in IL2). I just pointed out some detail that may has been misinterpreted.

I'm grateful for the time you put in reviewing it and I'll follow your advice.... where's my pitiful Hurri I?

Btw, do you fly in AvA? It's a blast!

Schatzi · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2006, 06:40:22 AM »

LoL, Gian, i was just kidding you (about the better not listen part

). Im sorry if the joke didnt get across, i dont want to imply youre ignoring me. Which is something you probably should do

. My advice is just another opinion of a know-it-all fellow player that has no idea what hes doing in a plane

.

Yes, i did stop by the AvA yesterday. Think lonely Schatzi in HMk1 against a full Dar Bar of Finns in 109E. What fun!!!!!

Numbers were pretty even for most of the time and teamwork went along good as well. And you know me... as long as im in my Hurri, im a happy girl

.

Its a pity that Wednesday theyll switch to Spit5/Hurr2C already.

PS: No bulls lately

. Lots of paperwork at the moment.

Gianlupo · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2006, 09:02:33 AM »

Sorry, but when in doubt better not to push things too far!

Yep, we're know-it-all pilots, it's normal, isn't it?

Glad you liked AvA, don't cry for the little Hurri, after all, the important thing is to have a good match up... and the IIC is a dangerous ride in hands like yours! (slap, slap!

)

I'm drowning in papers, I can fully understand you!

Now, back on topic: no one else want to add his opinion?

Schatzi · « **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2006, 11:20:59 AM »

Quote

Top thread hijacker of the BBS

He even manages to hijack his own threads.....

wetrat · « **Reply #12 on:** January 24, 2006, 11:32:51 AM »

It was indeed perfectly apparent that he wasn't about to commit fully to a knife fight, but you still could've popped him. Since he was zoom climbing every time to avoid getting into that knife fight, and not just extending a bit THEN zooming, you could have pulled for a shot. Granted, probably a low-% shot since the dora sucks, but some throttle work and lead turning could have gotten your nose on him. I recommend you turn tracers off... when I'm pulling my routine "reversal" (or overshoot.. wtf ever it is), I shoot even when I don't think I'll hit, and if I do don't think I'll do much damage. If someone sees tracers whizzing past their cockpit every time they make a pass at me, they're either gonna get skurred and run away, depriving me of a kill, or be even more timid and piss me off. Plus, no tracers forces you to aim with your gunsight and not your tracers.

I can't really offer any suggestions on how to improve your aim, beyond flying LW stuff (since their guns are generally the most challenging). I was a decent shot when I was a total newb, so I don't know what to say there.

SA is a different story, though... First, I'd recommend using snap views (F9) if you don't already. They're kind of disorienting at first (well, they were for me), but you should get used to it quickly. It makes it much easier to get a complete picture of your situation in the least amount of time, which is a necessity when you're fighting someone already and want to make sure you don't get picked. Another part of it is knowing who's really a threat, and who you can probably ignore (high risk-high reward type stuff) if you're already in a fight. If you're twisting and turning at low speeds with someone, and there's a 190 or something buzzing by at 400mph trying to pick you, chances are you're not going to get it. If it's a hurricane coming in... chances are, you're gonna have to react to him. Sometimes you'll get burned, sometimes you won't. A big part of my SA is confidence in my gunnery so I can kill someone quickly. If I'm close to getting a shot on someone, and there's a plane 2k out that I'm definitely gonna have to dodge soon, I'm going to go for the kill (since I'm confident in my ability to hit my shots), THEN deal with the new threat. Another part of that is being confident that you can avoid getting ripped apart when you're in a bad situation with a new plane coming in on you. I'd say roughly 80% of dealing with that is throttle work.

Anywho, I gotta go back to work

Hopefully I made some sense... very tired.

Iceman24 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 24, 2006, 11:46:19 AM »

the main reason i don't like FW's or any LW plane is the ballitstics of the guns... The Dora rolls very well, so you can setup for the "overshoot snapshot" that wetrat and the others are talking about very easily, I just can't ever get a guns solution ( I'm not used to the ballistics yet in them ) but I do fight allot of them in my 38 or pony and IMHO if any LW plane is more than D400 behind you, small input movements will make him miss everytime, so when your trying to make them overshoot so you can roll back over, just remember you really don't have do be much slower than them, sucker em in all you can... basically i do like wetrat said except I usually start my lazy turn when there about 1k behind or 800 or so. just start a real slight left turn ( if the plane i'm fighting is a LW because its harder for them to turn left with the way the torque in the engine works and I'm usually in a P38 with no torque effect

) but anyways, i basically just look out my 6 view the whole time, tryin to keep em at a slight off angle the whole time, but im trying NOT to bleed all my E, im trying to save as much as possible because I know that 80 % of the time the guy thats bnzing me will just zoom back up after following me 45 degrees or so in the turn... so the second I see his range go from 200 to 0 and start to go back for the zoom, i roll back over and punch the wep and go for the shot, and since i usually fly a 38 I can pluck em at about 800 to 1000 out as there zoomin back up... Allot of people use this same move with different variants, I try and get em as close as I can on my 6 at an off angle and try to basically stay just a hair slower, it took me a long time in the da to get the timing down but it works great

Gianlupo · « **Reply #14 on:** January 24, 2006, 02:25:28 PM »

Again, thank you all for the advice.

I already use istant view and, luckily, amongst my many bad habits, I never had the one of leading the tracers to the target, I always aim through the gunsight. I'll turn tracer off, I've already heard others suggesting such a thing, time to put it into practice.

I watched the movie again, I didn't notice that I pulled the trigger the first time only about 4 minutes after the fight started!

Yes, I was too passive for the whole first part, I remember I was trying to find a way to suck him slow and low with me and close distance to have a good shot on his back quarter.... not the right thing to do, as you said, Wetrat it was soon clear he wasn't going to commit himself to that type of fight. Problem is I had already burnt my E at that time and I was going on in burning it in those reversal, as Schatzi pointed out. Maybe I should have extended to rebuild my E and merge again, but I thought that he would easily get me with his speed advantage, not giving me the time/space I needed, so I stayed and kept turning

Well, I hope the lesson will be useful, I'll try to follow your advice, thank you again!

Schatzi...... I can hijack anything!