"Adam and Eve" as a US Standard ?

[StSanta]

Heh ALL imports come from abroad, miko. that's the point  

Show me an import that does not come from some place outside the country?

It's akin to saying "most things we export out of this country are produced in this country".  


SAW, we're not atheists. We're merely "Spiritually self reliant"  

Heh  

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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht

[TheWobble]

Darwins way:  probabal, makes sense.
Genesis:  Far fetched to say the least, wishful.

I believe in god and all but I believe in evolution aswell, i dont believe in 1 or the other totally but think that somehow they mesh together.  However until there is CONCLUSIVE proff of that I would rather my kids (if had any) be taught evolution.  It actually makes sense.  

[-towd_]

no use argueing with you. but  texas has a horrible school system . and the usa is not a christain country . the vatican is a christain country . we have freedom of religion with no preference supposedly  (christians  keep trying to insert their dogma in every thing they can ) the church was kept out of government for a reason . so no its not a cristian country. thanks be to god

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by Swoop:
Anyone in GB check out Panorama this week (may even be tonight).  The episode is called "the accidental president".      So far the adverts for it have all been classic Bush quotes like "more and more of our imports are coming from abroad" and my personal favorite "the budget is very complicated and full of numbers".

Swoop

Well hell Swoop it is complicated and full of numbers. What's the average Joe going to do with all that mumbo jumbo. Do you think Ma and Pa Kettle will read it. LOL! As a US citizen I'm sick of importing my imports from some damn foreign country. We should import from right here in the good old USA! I want an import that was made with good old American know how.

I hadn't heard those Swoop. That's classic.

Don't get me wrong I love my country. It's that some of the things are presidents have said make me wonder just how much of a puppet they really are.

[TheWobble]

I agree towd, there are no 2 things than should be kept farther apart than religion and education.  Seeing as how the us doesent had any "official" religion and is so diverse there should be ANY religion of ANY kind in public schools, the public is not any certin religion thus neither should public schools.  In HS i want to Saint Josephs High here in victoria for 2 years than then athe the public school Victoria for 2.  IMO there was MORE religious teaching in science at the public as opposed to the private, that really struck me strange.

[LJK Raubvogel]

While we do have separation of church and state, here are a few phrases that might sound familiar.

"One nation under God"

"In God we trust"

"....and nothing but the truth so help you God"

I know there are more, but you get the point. We are not a religious state, but religion is a big part of our country.

p.s. the Vatican Nation isn't "cristain", its Roman Catholic.  

(edit) Just to make it clear, I do not advocate teaching Genesis in schools. The facts should be taught in school. The fact is evolution occurred. There "may" have been a Genesis-like event, but it is certainly not proven.

[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-18-2001).]

[Dead Man Flying]

 

Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
While we do have separation of church and state, here are a few phrases that might sound familiar.

"One nation under God"

"In God we trust"

"....and nothing but the truth so help you God"

Many of these phrases were added to the public record as recently as the 1950's in knee-jerk responses to the Red Scare.  After all, what God-fearing American (who says as much in the Pledge of Allegiance) could possibly be a Commie?

The first appearance of ANY reference to God in American currency came during the Civil War, and NO paper money featured the phrase "In God We Trust" until 1957.

The line "One Nation Under God" didn't appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954.

So anyway, context is useful here.  I'm not denying that America is a religious country, but I also don't want this discussion to center around public phrases that are about as far removed from the founding fathers as we are.

-- Todd/DMF

[Saintaw]

Thank you Miko2d for making it clearer, these are times where I wish that my "English" was better   (Both in reading and expressing myself)

<S!>

Saw

[AKDejaVu]

 

(Read, Kids will be taught the "Adam and Eve" story instead of Scientific view that is taught today

What fascinates me is that people think one of these is more/less accurate than the other.  Scientific views.. that cracks me up.  Scientific assumptions that haven't been disproven yet might be a tad more accurate.

The truth of the matter is.. well matter.  It can neither be created nor destroyed... basic law of science.  Where did it originally come from?  Science has more questions than answers.

The sad thing is when either view is presented as fact.  I'd rather see both presented for the ideological explanations they are.

Pure arrogance is the assumption that someone can figure out how the universe was created based on the relatively primitive means available to us today.  I almost prefer the Bible's explanation for that very reason.

AKDejaVu

[TheWobble]

I have trouble seeing the bible as anything more than a really good strangley written book that teaches many good things, the bible itself says not to take it literally, it is written so much like they wanted to convey ideology with the use of metaphores and analogy, not as a documentry.  however those that believe it rained fish will continue to believe it rained fish.  it is likley that noone will ever know unless they die (and thats a big maby) evolution is a fact, it actually happens, it has been observed, we see it every day in insects and mammals and bacteria.  The creation story exists in one book along with alot of other odd and questionable stories of which 99% have nothing resembling proof to back them up in any way, not a hard decision for me to figure out which is more likley to be true.  I dont really care what people believe, as long as they dont try to push it on me, worship your lawn mower for all I care, but keep it outta my yard  

[StSanta]

Deja, you GOT to be kidding.

You're saying that the bible story, the creation myth of Asatru,[insert religious mumbo jumbo here] is as well supported as the theory of evolution?

You mistake the self correcting mechanisms in science for a weakness when it's a strength. If it's wring, it'll correct itself. Since Darwin, the theory of evolution has had fixex, patches - but not anyone messing directly with the kernel so to speak. It's more well supported than many other scientific theories, but because religion intrudes into its domain, it becomes unacceptable for the hardheaded theists.

Answering question gives rise to questions - that much is certain. But if we limited this discussion to evolution for starters we'd be on the right path.

Abiogenesis, i.e the theory about how life originated, is not evolution. Evolution is simply put change in allele frequency over time. To the basic layman, allele's are these nifty thingies found in our DNA. These changes either prove benefitial or (more often) either doesn't change much or make the situation worse. Through natural selection we get a situation like the one we have today.

Unlike religion, science does not have the answers to start with. In the beginning, there's nothing. Then there is a hypothesis, a general falsifiable suggestion that can be examined. Well, this is generally speaking, nuclear physics has lately become more and more mathematical. At any rate, since the hypothesis is falsifiable, it can be disproved and tested.

That's where we are with evolution today. Microevolution *is* a fact - biologists studying bacteria have been able to notice change in allele frequency over time. it's doable because of the very short life cycle of bacteria. Macroevolution is what we all really associate with evolution - here comes differentiation and all kinds of neato stuff.

What alternatives do we have that are based on a wish to know, and not preconceived answers? None. We have various creation myth, the most prevalent in the western world is that this dude took a male and a female of eahc species, put them on a boat and then repopulated the earth. This is silly for many reasons; such a limited gene pool would very rapildy lead to inbreeding and the species would not be able to continue on ebyond a few generations. Even worse, it suggests that all species that have existed and does exist have existed since the beginning of time. This places humans next to dinosaurs and so forth. Even worse for the theists, it can be disproved even by a layman.

Let's focus this discussion on evolution. Claiming it is unsubstianted is like claiming our knowledge of aerodynamics is next to useless. Like it or not, evolution is a fact and a theory and applied science based on it can save lives.

Praying can't.

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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
 
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 01-19-2001).]

[Saintaw]

Being a programmer of sorts myself, and having a wife who's statistician in Biogenetics makes us quite tending to the "Logic side" of things  .

As I said, I do not mind anyone having any beiefs he wants for him or his children, I was only affraid that this would have been "mandatory". Miko now explained clearly how "subjects" are chosen in Schools in the US, as opposed to here in Europe where most of the subjcts you study are "Standards" (AFAIK, we all had a minimum of 26 hours / week of Math,Phisycs, Biology, Geography, History... whatever "branch" you pick in your Studies. )

Also, here, there are seperate Shool systems :

-State School (Laic schools)

-Catholic Schools (Funded by Catholic Church) where you have the choice wether your kidd will attend to "religious

-classes" or not.
Private Schools = $$$

Imagine the effect of a statement (like the one in my Original post) would have here in Europe ! It would mean that all types of education would have to get the religious one as well (no choice left).

This was exactly what dreaded me ()hope I made myself clear this time <g>

Saw

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by TheWobble:
I have trouble seeing the bible as anything more than a really good strangley written book that teaches many good things, the bible itself says not to take it literally, it is written so much like they wanted to convey ideology with the use of metaphores and analogy, not as a documentry.  however those that believe it rained fish will continue to believe it rained fish.  it is likley that noone will ever know unless they die (and thats a big maby) evolution is a fact, it actually happens, it has been observed, we see it every day in insects and mammals and bacteria.  The creation story exists in one book along with alot of other odd and questionable stories of which 99% have nothing resembling proof to back them up in any way, not a hard decision for me to figure out which is more likley to be true.  I dont really care what people believe, as long as they dont try to push it on me, worship your lawn mower for all I care, but keep it outta my yard  

Amen  

[ICEWIND]

I really do not understand why religion and Evolution do not fit together.
If anybody believes in God as creator of all things ,then logically he is the Creator of Nature and their for also the creator of Evolution.

To a certain degree Religion lives of the ignorance of Man because everything we can not explain we explain with God. Or in other words the UNKNOWN is God in our Heads. That’s were Science Jumps in to calm our fear, so everything we can understand  seems less frightening to us.
I am saying seems because everything we can explain Scientifically we have the self illusion that we understand it, but in reality we can not understand anything!
We can explain Evolution we can explain Thunder but can Man explain me why all this was created in the first place and of what use it all is. Believe me no living thing can ever answer this question.
Religion is something that is to deep in our heads, that anyone can explain it with Science.


Might sound silly but for sure it counts for all People, We do not differ to our Ancestors thousands of years ago , because we are  all still frightened be a Storm.



[This message has been edited by ICEWIND (edited 01-19-2001).]

[Jimdandy]

   

Originally posted by Saintaw:

Miko now explained clearly how "subjects" are chosen in Schools in the US, as opposed to here in Europe where most of the subjcts you study are "Standards" (AFAIK, we all had a minimum of 26 hours / week of Math,Phisycs, Biology, Geography, History... whatever "branch" you pick in your Studies. )

Also, here, there are seperate Shool systems :

-State School (Laic schools)

-Catholic Schools (Funded by Catholic Church) where you have the choice wether your kidd will attend to "religious

-classes" or not.
Private Schools = $$$

Imagine the effect of a statement (like the one in my Original post) would have here in Europe ! It would mean that all types of education would have to get the religious one as well (no choice left).

This was exactly what dreaded me ()hope I made myself clear this time <g>

Saw

The system really isn't that different in the US. There are mandatory hours of reading, writing, and arithmetic. And there are pubic, private, and religious schools. The problem in the US is the over lapping of states rights and freedom of speech onto the school system. Public schools 'generally' stay out of the religious realm. It varies greatly from state to state and county to county. This is the age old problem in the US. How far do we go in controlling the states and local governments in the education system. I think it's easy. The Constitution clearly separates church and state. It clearly gives you the right to complain about it. Until the complainers change the constitution all they can and should be able to do is complain. I don't think the Constitution should be changed. The point is public tax money is being spent on the public school system. Everyone forgets that public school in the US were set up and are similar to a charity. If you don't want to spend money on your local school in the form of property taxes your making the choice not to educate your neighborhood children. The system was set up because a majority of the people in the community believed all children had the right to be literate. They would go to church on Sunday to get there Bible studies. Now days there seems to be a lot of people that don't want to get off their butt and take their kid to church on Sunday. The game is on during church I guess. So they blame the school system for their lack of motivation. Don't expect the school system to do anything you wont do yourself. They can teach all of the creation they want in school but if you've instilled the values you believe in in your children they will make their choice based on your advise. The fact is you have the freedom in the US to take your children to the religious organization of your choice after school. Let the school do it's primary task making your children literate. YOU get off YOUR butt and make them good upstanding moral citizens. The fact that the founding fathers believed in God is clear. The fact that they believed that you should have the right not to believe is also clear. In the Bible God gave Adam and Eve the freedom of choice. Adam and Eve made some poor choices and paid the consequences. But God let them make those choices. It's called learning and taking responsibility for your actions. How could God be a benevolent God if he didn't allow you to choose?

If all of the above gives you an impression of me I will just about bet it is the wrong one.   You will have to read between the lines very carefully to tell what is behind the above statement.  

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-19-2001).]