Author Topic: If Iwo Jima happened today ......... (Read 1208 times)

ChickenHawk · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:11:40 PM »

Actually there was some bad press. According to the book Iwo Jima by Richard F. Newcomb, Page 202: (which I happen to have here on my bookshelf at work,) on February 27 the San Francisco Examiner, in a front-page editorial said that although victory was certain, "there is awesome evidence in the situation that the attacking American forces are paying heavily for the island, perhaps too heavily."

It went on to say that if Gen MacArthur was in charge of this campaign, more men's lives would have been saved. It also asked the question, "Why do we not use him more, and indeed, why do we not give him supreme command in the Pacific war."

Of course it can be pointed out that this editorial was more about MacArthur and Nimitz than about American lives but there is no doubt it caused a fire storm. Some Marines stormed the paper offices and demanded an apology from the editor, which they did not get. Police were called but the Marines were not charged.

After initial negative response from casualty reports, Nimitz kept them from the press until the end and then referred to them only as a fraction of the enemy’s losses.

It's easy to see from our view point looking back through history how necessary taking the island was, but there was a lot of anxiety at home concerning Iwo and the reaction was not always positive.

In any event, I think the parody was ridiculous because you can't compare today's political and military environment to 1945. If we were in a world wide campaign the scope of WWII right now, I can guarantee the majority of the press would not sound like cutie. We may not be able to live up to the greatest generation who ever lived, but I don't think we have sunk that far yet.

Thanks for the link though, I've added many nice Iwo pictures to my collection from it.

Shuckins · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:28:31 PM »

Chickenhawk,

You're absolutely right....there is no comparing the political and military climates of today with those of 1945.

The great majority of Americans in WWII clung unwaveringly to the goal of total victory, even though they realized that mistakes would be made and that casualties were going to be horrendous.

In today's environment the O'Sullivan tragedy along would be enough to sink a war effort.

Another difference between the two periods is that no war correspondents of the caliber of Ernie Pyle have emerged. That fact alone speaks volumes.

weaselsan · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:33:35 PM »

I have always wondered how we could have prosecuted WWII had we had todays media. Any press conference today is so filled with stupid questions they become unwatchable. example; some nitwit ask if Cheney is going to resign over the accidental shooting, another tries to equate it with Katrina??? I wonder how they could handle allowing an attack on an English town without warning the occupants so the Germans would'nt discover that enigma had been broken. Hell the N. Y. Times would print it all over page one. Churchhill lied, people died.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:36:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by weaselsan
I have always wondered how we could have prosecuted WWII had we had todays media. Any press conference today is so filled with stupid questions they become unwatchable. example; some nitwit ask if Cheney is going to resign over the accidental shooting, another tries to equate it with Katrina??? I wonder how they could handle allowing an attack on an English town without warning the occupants so the Germans would'nt discover that enigma had been broken.

Hey you forgot, we'd have to get FISA court permission and go to congress to have them amend it after a lengthy congressional inquriy just to use ENIGMA

Angus · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:38:39 PM »

Oh Furby:
"OMG!!!!!!!!!!! the American's used the 'fluffy hammer of death' on the Japanese?"

Anyway as a sidenote, us humble extras didn't really notice the cameras that much, our focus was the Japs ahead. Sometimes imaginary (except those frigging bombs that blew up 3 yards behind you and left a crate big enough for 3 to hide in, - not kidding) and sometimes those #### of ######'s opened fire from a bunker you couldn't see and everybody had to duck, dig, flank, die,or/and try to locate the bugger and take him out in the good old fireteam way.
Back to the cameras - much later we realized they were all over the place. Hidden. OMG I'll buy the first ticket for this movie......
WTG Clint

Gunslinger · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:41:52 PM »

I didn't realize he was making a second film from a jap perspective. Kinda interesting really.

Angus · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:44:38 PM »

Oh you guys:

"Originally posted by weaselsan
I have always wondered how we could have prosecuted WWII had we had todays media. Any press conference today is so filled with stupid questions they become unwatchable. example; some nitwit ask if Cheney is going to resign over the accidental shooting, another tries to equate it with Katrina??? I wonder how they could handle allowing an attack on an English town without warning the occupants so the Germans would'nt discover that enigma had been broken. "

There were some really nasty decisions made to conceal the fact that Enigma had been broken and/or a machine caught.

I presume that the raid you refer to is the raid on Coventry. Well, Enigma or not, there was not much of a chance to stop it, - happened at night you see, and the night fighting arm of the RAF was in it's infancy at the time.
If you would be referring to something else, bear in mind that even the top of the RAF's FC, Dowding himself, had no link with enigma info before the 14th of oct. 1940. By the time, LW had reverted mostly to night ops.

weaselsan · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:45:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
Oh Furby:
"OMG!!!!!!!!!!! the American's used the 'fluffy hammer of death' on the Japanese?"

Anyway as a sidenote, us humble extras didn't really notice the cameras that much, our focus was the Japs ahead. Sometimes imaginary (except those frigging bombs that blew up 3 yards behind you and left a crate big enough for 3 to hide in, - not kidding) and sometimes those #### of ######'s opened fire from a bunker you couldn't see and everybody had to duck, dig, flank, die,or/and try to locate the bugger and take him out in the good old fireteam way.
Back to the cameras - much later we realized they were all over the place. Hidden. OMG I'll buy the first ticket for this movie......
WTG Clint

I watched the invasion of Tarawa on the History channel last night. An island 1/3 the size of Central park. After 3 days of fighting 1500 U.S. marines killed over 5000 Japanese marines killed. Today 2 casualties is Front page.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:46:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by weaselsan
I watched the invasion of Tarawa on the History channel last night. An island 1/3 the size of Central park. after 3 days of fighting 1500 marines killed over 5000 Japanese marines killed. Today 2 casualties is Front page.

Okinawa was worse.....for both sides.

weaselsan · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:54:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
Oh you guys:

"Originally posted by weaselsan
I have always wondered how we could have prosecuted WWII had we had todays media. Any press conference today is so filled with stupid questions they become unwatchable. example; some nitwit ask if Cheney is going to resign over the accidental shooting, another tries to equate it with Katrina??? I wonder how they could handle allowing an attack on an English town without warning the occupants so the Germans would'nt discover that enigma had been broken. "

There were some really nasty decisions made to conceal the fact that Enigma had been broken and/or a machine caught.

I presume that the raid you refer to is the raid on Coventry. Well, Enigma or not, there was not much of a chance to stop it, - happened at night you see, and the night fighting arm of the RAF was in it's infancy at the time.
If you would be referring to something else, bear in mind that even the top of the RAF's FC, Dowding himself, had no link with enigma info before the 14th of oct. 1940. By the time, LW had reverted mostly to night ops.

I don't think it was Coventry. A smaller coastal town that had Radar positioned there. They knew that a large raid was planned and when it would occur, and did not warn the civilians because they feared that German spies would know that the only way they could know was to decode enigma.

Angus · « **Reply #25 on:** February 13, 2006, 06:14:31 PM »

Well dig it up then will you.
They would need the town name to have been sure - it's too short for a proper interception say alone at night.
Anyway back to the pacific. The US used some clever stunts to stay off uneccesary casualties. Island "hopping" meant that you would only capture the key island and leave the others alone. But with IWO there was no option.
Tarawa was bad. Iwo was much worse. Palau was pretty bad. And Okinawa was really really bad. And a huge operation. From those stepping stones the U.S. along with the U.K. from other fronts went on calculating the cold costs of bending the Japanese homeland in conventional warfare. Rough estimate - US and UK servicemen dead 1 million plus, japanese soldiers 1-2 millions plus, japanese civilians 3-4 millions plus. Something like that. No wonder they went to the nuke - but wonder what the news would say...

ChickenHawk · « **Reply #26 on:** February 13, 2006, 06:19:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
From those stepping stones the U.S. along with the U.K. from other fronts went on calculating the cold costs of bending the Japanese homeland in conventional warfare. Rough estimate - US and UK servicemen dead 1 million plus, japanese soldiers 1-2 millions plus, japanese civilians 3-4 millions plus. Something like that. No wonder they went to the nuke - but wonder what the news would say...

It's ironic that the atomic bomb saved millions of Japanese lives.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #27 on:** February 13, 2006, 06:29:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by ChickenHawk
It's ironic that the atomic bomb saved millions of Japanese lives.

Oh boy, now you did it, opened Pandora's box again!

weaselsan · « **Reply #28 on:** February 13, 2006, 06:39:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
Well dig it up then will you.
They would need the town name to have been sure - it's too short for a proper interception say alone at night.
Anyway back to the pacific. The US used some clever stunts to stay off uneccesary casualties. Island "hopping" meant that you would only capture the key island and leave the others alone. But with IWO there was no option.
Tarawa was bad. Iwo was much worse. Palau was pretty bad. And Okinawa was really really bad. And a huge operation. From those stepping stones the U.S. along with the U.K. from other fronts went on calculating the cold costs of bending the Japanese homeland in conventional warfare. Rough estimate - US and UK servicemen dead 1 million plus, japanese soldiers 1-2 millions plus, japanese civilians 3-4 millions plus. Something like that. No wonder they went to the nuke - but wonder what the news would say...

You where right ..it was Coventry. Should have checked first.
He let Coventry burn.

Still one of my favorite historical figures to read.

Pongo · « **Reply #29 on:** February 13, 2006, 11:19:33 PM »

weeks in the battle of Okinawa.
IIIIIIIIII
Weeks in the invasion of Iraq.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII III
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIII

How much suport do you think the Invasion of Okinawa would have had if it stretched half way to the Korean war with no end in sight.
And no Japanese were ever found there?