Rain of steel frame 2

[Sled]

Probably the most lopsided Frame of FSO I have ever seen. When it comes to planes shot down. Anyone have any thoughts on why this was, or what happened.

Looking at the logs I don't see any reason for the Axis to have won so overwhelmingly. Most of the Axis force was Ki61's and A6M's, with only about 48 Nik's and Ki84's. So it is hard to blame it on the plane match up.

Not looking to start anything, and not trying to point a finger of blame. Just wondering, what happened?

[Joker312]

Could the reason be that US aircraft are under-modeled and the .50 cals are no match for 20mm? Or could it be that the Allies just had a poor plan that squandered their assets in small groups with no real chance for sucess?


I flew for the axis btw. I cant believe the results of this frame either. Never seen a side get beat this bad.

[doobs]

So who won:rolleyes:

Maybe the FSO gods had pity on my soul, considering the last two times and my only two times as the CiC I got Crushed steamrolled stomped spit on. I took the last one real hard and personal.

But for my opinion, I had planned for an all out JABO run, figured the buffs would be left in the bellies of the carriers.  I actually thought we we going lose, didn't see how we could stop all the jabos

Then after the frame I learn from tracer they couldn't carry bombs on the fiters. Right there, I knew why they lost. Cannons made the difference, if the F4U-1C C-hog was used bet it would of been a whole different frame.

Every plane we had up had cannons, TBMS are fairly easy targets and cannons get rid of them quick. And the F4's and F6's  cant straffe a field down.  

After looking at the logs it looked like a mostly KI61 vs F4.

If and when this event plays again use the C-Hog and allow the F6 limited bomb load, I believe that would play out alot closer(btw callin Allies for that event).

with that said extra saki for smash32.

[Sled]

The F4UD and F6F, were both very capable of dominating this frame of FSO, if flown properly. IMHO there is no way you can place the Axis victory on plane match up. You might have expected the results of this frame, if the Axis had been allowed ALL NiK's. As a matter of fact that has happened before and the Axis did not win like this, in that FSO.

[Atlatl]

I am a wingman in this frame, with no command decisions, but here's my 0.02. I'm also something less than an ace with the Corsair (or any other plane, for that matter).

If there was one thing I'd point to for the lopsidedness of the battle it was the relative climb rates for the Ki61/Ki-84 and F4/F6. It's a fairly tight battle field, and I think it made the difference.

We were tasked a long Allied fighter sweep with Corsair D-models, which meant full internals and max externals to get the distance, and our subsequent climb rate was something other than extraordinary.

The short story - we had just leveled at 18k after a long climbout, when we spotted their short icons at what looked like 20-22k in altitude. We were slow and heavy (even after dropping ext tanks) with few options - the ki61 doesn't compress like similar planes, so it seems even a dive-out would have failed (though it may have lengthened the flight). We leveled/nosed-down for speed and were engaged within 8-10 seconds of spotting the dots.

From the logs, it looked like we (w/ 2 pilot advantage) ran into the Damned SE, and our entire squad was gone in something like 4 minutes. With most of us out within a much shorter time.

Of the 11 of us, I'd say there were 4-6 that never had a chance to fire a shot after getting jumped...I myself lost half my wing on the first reversal and dove away.

We climbed at best rate and ended up at 18k, slow and heavy. The ki61s presumably climbed at best rate and got to 20K+ with additional time to get up to speed.

to the Damned SE...nice shooting.

[Dantoo]

I too have played this one before as axis and got squashed horribly.

I can tell you one thing, as small as it is, may have made considerable difference.  This is of course the story for just one squad with a single viewpoint, but it almost certainly  reflected in wider consequences.

I was defending at the northern end of the chain in a Ki61.  Early on a group of 4 very high Corsairs came in and acted as "flashers".  Initially they did their job well causing confusion and making us dump our tanks.  They forced us to respond to their intrusions and upset our patrol areas, using up our fuel and patience.

Now here's the rub.  Just before the main force came in, they reappeared.  Our cap had originally been set at much lower altitudes.  The intruders in effect "dragged us up".  When the strikers arrived they had actually positioned us in the right place and high, at worst co-alt, probably above the strikers, in their face.  Secondly, we had about 10 minutes fuel aboard.  We were extremely light.

We just hacked into them.  The inbound force could have blown past but they stopped to fight and we brawled down to the deck.  At about the time I got "tree'd", the Mongrels and JB's pounced on the great bunch of them now even lower and slower.  At best, what had been a 600lb gorilla coming downtown turned into a spread out trail of lesser simians.  They didn't seem to have a second strike in mind at all and kept turning back into a low slow furball on the deck.  Light Japanese planes love that kind of thing.

[Hornet33]

One thing I've noticed in my year of flying in FSO is that the squads that seriously concentrate on completing their assigned missions 9 times out of 10 do so. It seems however that most people are looking for the BIG body count. They want their name in lights and end up furballing instead of flying their mission. Dantoo's experiance is a case in point. The Allied pilots could have blown through and made it to target but instead they tried to engage a force of Axis planes light on fuel and co-alt or higher and ended up getting splashed for their effort.

Everyone should remember that the MA is the place to get your name in lights. FSO is about teamwork and flying the mission assigned, not make it up as you go.

While I missed frame 2 due to family obligations, I was in frame 1 and my squad hit all assigned targets on our first run in Vals. The second worse plane in the game but we flew it knowing it's limitations and we took that into account and made the target area and conducted a good strike.

JG44 takes FSO seriously and we fly to win. Many times we will let enemy forces go right by us if engaging them will disrupt our assigned mission. We report to higher command if we spot enemy planes and that we are not engaging but proceeding on our mission.

Remember guys FSO is a 2 hour event. There is no need to try and get in a fight within the first 5 minutes. If you are your just making it real easy for the serious players to do their jobs.

to everyone who flys in FSO. I think it's the best thing about this game.

[BlkKnit]

One thing to consider:

The Japanese planes all (to a greater or lesser degree) are capable solo brawlers.....one guy can take on a few enemy, especially if they do not fly well together.  For the Big Blue's the reverse is true....they are best used in groups, covering each for other and making teamwork the most important tactic....but gotta have the E to use to your advantage or you are fighting the IJN's battle.

I dont think there are very many squads who can claim to be truly proficient at this sort of teamwork, wingman and squad tactics.  There are, however,  many very good pilots who can take on a small group of enemies all by themselves.  The IJN/IJA planes favor the latter.

Just my opinion.  Wasn't able to attend due to sinus infection and excessive amounts of alcohol.

[Drano]

Originally posted by Atlatl
I am a wingman in this frame, with no command decisions, but here's my 0.02. I'm also something less than an ace with the Corsair (or any other plane, for that matter).

If there was one thing I'd point to for the lopsidedness of the battle it was the relative climb rates for the Ki61/Ki-84 and F4/F6. It's a fairly tight battle field, and I think it made the difference.

We were tasked a long Allied fighter sweep with Corsair D-models, which meant full internals and max externals to get the distance, and our subsequent climb rate was something other than extraordinary.

The short story - we had just leveled at 18k after a long climbout, when we spotted their short icons at what looked like 20-22k in altitude. We were slow and heavy (even after dropping ext tanks) with few options - the ki61 doesn't compress like similar planes, so it seems even a dive-out would have failed (though it may have lengthened the flight). We leveled/nosed-down for speed and were engaged within 8-10 seconds of spotting the dots.

From the logs, it looked like we (w/ 2 pilot advantage) ran into the Damned SE, and our entire squad was gone in something like 4 minutes. With most of us out within a much shorter time.

Of the 11 of us, I'd say there were 4-6 that never had a chance to fire a shot after getting jumped...I myself lost half my wing on the first reversal and dove away.

We climbed at best rate and ended up at 18k, slow and heavy. The ki61s presumably climbed at best rate and got to 20K+ with additional time to get up to speed.

to the Damned SE...nice shooting.

Filed under that whole fog of war thing its funny. I led the Damned flight that you guys ran into. Our orders had us climbing out Southwest from A20 (I think) then turning East establishing a racetrack along a roughly E/W line to cover A18 from the South. When we saw you we were just about to turn left. Had we done that a minute earlier or you had arrived there a minute later we'd have never seen each other! If that had happened and you continued North a bit you could have gotten in behind most of our defense(the next closest friendly flight I had lost sight of on my left a couple of minutes prior to us seeing you and they were headed eastery too) and at least gotten to drop on 18. We did have plenty of CAP there tho so chances are you wouldn't have made it back out.

Mistake on your part IMO was even slowing down. You guys should have blown by us and just ran for the target. Fighting with ords and I'd think prolly heavy on gas so early in the frame was a sure recipe for disaster. We cleaned out all of you with no losses. One of our guys did lose an aileron and another had a fuel hit but that was all. It all went down pretty quickly. And the rest of the frame was pretty boring for us!

But a big back at you. You'll snuff us next time---maybe.  

Drano

[MIShill]

In the area we were covering, unlucky for the Allies, most of us were rtb to reload fuel & were still high & light. There was no wing tactic seen after engagement & the f-6 whose 6 I settled on was left out to dry. I kept looking for someone to help him, nobody appeared. It seems, in my limited experience, that wingman & fighter cover tactics & mass attack strategy are very important in these events.

MI

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

We didn't slow down, we were already slow. We were climbing at about 180, and were at 18K, going to 24-26K. I spotted you, made the call and dropped tanks, but still had a lot of fuel. The rest didn't actually see you until 15 seconds or more after I called bandits 3 high. You guys were already rolling into the attack by the time they saw you. They never had a chance to even start to accelerate, and some hadn't even let their tanks go before they were engaged. All in all, we screwed the pooch, and were also in the wrong place at the wrong time. Too many mistakes were made. All on one side. Congratulations on taking maximum advantage of a poorly planned and poorly led mission and flight. We got our tulips handed to us, and we deserved it. You did very well.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

By the way, I'm not complaining or making excuses. There is no excuse for our performance. None. No excuse for the poor plan and poorer execution either. I take full responsibility myself.

[Sled]

Well it appears that rules 1A and 1B of the Dicta-Boelcke were not followed. It also seems that the Allies would have been well served in delaying there approach on the targets until they had achieved good altitude and speed. That is what I have gathered from what I have read.

[ROC]

I've been watching SIM put his first FSO together for quite a while now, and he has been agonizing over each part of it.  He really wanted this thing to be a knock down drag out fight.

I flew on the Axis side, and having talked with SIM over setup conditions etc, stayed in the background basically following groups and shooting anything that someone else found.  I made sure I didn't tip of a heading, direction, location or even if I saw a flight or a CV, didn't report it.  

Knowing what the enemy was charged with doing, and knowing what our orders were, I came into friday grinning ear to ear because the Axis were going to get their Butts Kicked!  The Axis dominated frame 1 by taking out all the CVs, and the Allies had a Major Advantage  in frame 2.  There was no way that with 3 objectives, and needing to destroy 2 bases to secure a victory, there was no way the Axis could stop a pigpile on the targets.  It really wasn't physically possible, so seeing the Allies split up and pop dar on 3 locations, and basically take pot shots at each target instead of pigpiling 1, then repeating on the 2nd, totally took my by suprise.  I never saw that one coming.  

There was No Bad Planning Savage, only a Plan.  These work, sometimes, and other times they don't.  The reasons wars are won and lost is because sometimes good plans go right, but mostly planners get Lucky.  We didn't Plan on running into you, we got Lucky and ran into you.  You clearly planned on us Not being there or we never would have found you.

Had you planned a pigpile you would have Still ran into us, but expected it and blown through us leaving us in the dust.  The change from a Points based FSO to an Objective based FSO clearly allowed Instict to take over, which meant "we may die but were gonna outscore em" when in fact the objective was to Kill the Base and it really didn't matter if you killed the other guy in the process.  

The Single Biggest thing that I saw come out of this is not only that this FSO was "different" in strategy, but the FSO's MUST be different so stagnation and instincts don't take the place of creativity and adaptability.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, crawling back to my scenario hole now

[MIShill]

Nice synopsis of strategic thinking, ROC. It is difficult to "switch gears" to objective based execution, even with disciplined squads. BTW, I don't think the term "pigpile" is found in too many military strategy texts, lol.

MI