Author Topic: F4U vs. F6F  (Read 14435 times)

Offline F4UDOA

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F4U vs. F6F
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2006, 11:51:25 AM »
This might be my favorite conversation of all time.

Instead of listing reasons for a viewpoint of mine that is obvious I will just quote a few sources where the F6F-3/5 is compared to the F4U-1/1D either directly or indirectly.

1. TAIC report FW190 vrs F6F-3 and F4U-1D.
Speed
F4U advantage of 29MPH at SL, 21MPH at 10k, 14MPH at 20K and 12MPH at 25K.
Climb
F4U advantage oer the F6F at all speeds no specific rates noted.
Turn
No advantage noted over each other. Both superior to the FW190.

2. TAIC A6M5 vrs F4U-1D and F6F-5

Speed F4U advantage 7MPH at SL, 13MPH at 10K, 9MPH at 20K, 5K at 25K.

Climb F4U Advantage 600FPM SL to 10K, 500FPM at 15K and equal at 22K.

Turn the F4U/F6F were the same relative to the Zeke however the F4U was tested with flaps.

3. Navy Evaluation 1944 determined the F4U was en equal or better carrier A/C.

4. 1944 JFC Pax River- Pilots preffered the F4U-1D over the F6F-5 61% to 31%

5. SETP Socioty of Expermental Test pilots- An international group of modern Military test pilots in 1989 did a symposium on the P-51D, P-47D, F6F-5 and F4U-1D(FG-1D) and flight tested these A/C using modern test techniques. They preffered the F4U-1D for these reasons.

"Light and comfortable stick forces, good performance, adeqaute stall warning and docile behavior at the stall made it the Weapon of choice amoung those tested."

The greatest supporters of the F6F are Royal Navy Commander Eric Brown and Cheif Grumman test pilot Corkey Meyer that I have read.

BTW, I have never agreed on the speeds being the same at altititude of the two aircraft considering the drag areas are different as well as the frontal area. Also the pitot tube placement of the F6F that caused the error was discovered in 1944. I have a F6F-5 POH that is revised up to 1947. It show the problem as being corrected in later model F6F-5's.

The chart for the newer F6F-5 shows this

300Knots IAS Deduct 2.5Knots for CAS

The older F6F-5 the Chart shows this

300Knots IAS add 11.5Knots for CAS

The F4U-1/1D shows this

300Knots IAS add 8knots for CAS

So the differance between the two in pitot tube error is 3.5Knots error. Hardly anything to get worked up about.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 11:56:18 AM by F4UDOA »

Offline bozon

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« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2006, 12:45:44 PM »
Quote
BTW, I have never agreed on the speeds being the same at altititude of the two aircraft considering the drag areas are different as well as the frontal area.

Just a small correction as I've seen this mentioned several times before. "Frontal area" means absolutly nothing in regard to drag. The F4u had low drag for a big radial, but not because of frontal area.

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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2006, 01:30:40 PM »
One seldom addressed issue with the F4U is that it failed carrier compatibility trials. Consider that the prototype was flying on May 29, 1940, while the F6F prototype first flew in late June of 1942. Vought had delivered less than 60 fighters by November of 1942. Two and a half years after the prototype had flown, production was merely a trickle and these aircraft suffered from many problems still. During the first months of production, there were constant changes and updates being made right on the production line. Vought was establishing themselves as a very inefficient manufacturer. It took Vought almost four years to get the F4U sorted out for its designed purpose. Meanwhile, Grumman got it right coming out of the starting gate with the XF6F-3.

Contrary to standard WWII mythology, the F6F was not designed to combat the Zero. In June of 1941, the Navy issued Grumman a contract to design and develop an improved Wildcat as a back-up to the Vought F4U. The Navy was unwilling to place all of it cards on Vought's table, especially since Vought had not established that the F4U would be a success. Hindsight shows that this caution was not only justified, but a God send.

Thirteen months after the XF6F-3 flies, the Hellcat is in combat flying from  the Essex, Yorktown, Independence, Princeton and Belleau Wood with VF-33 operating from Guadalcanal as well.

Grumman's philosophy was "build 'em simple, build 'em strong and build 'em quickly." In March of 1945, Grumman's Plant #3 delivered 605 F6F-5s, a record that was never beaten by any other American manufacturer from a single factory during the war or since. In fact, Plant #3 actually delivered 658 aircraft that month, including 48 F7Fs, 2 F8Fs and 3 Goose Amphibians. During the whole of its production life, the F6F saw the fewest changes to the basic design of any fighter still in combat at the war's end. It was simply that good from the outset.

So, what about performance and general usage? Both aircraft have their merits and their weaknesses. However, the F4U's weaknesses were generally chronic and somewhat more severe than those of the Hellcat.

In terms of handling, the F6F was superior, especially "around the boat". Benign stall characteristics, good view of the flight deck and a wing that generated tremendous lift all contributed to the Hellcat being a safe and easy fighter to operate from a carrier. On the other hand, the F4U stalled far more violently, and visibility over the long nose was very poor. Stall characteristics improved a great deal with the addition of a wing spoiler to counter the violent wing drop of early aircraft, but it never came close to the F6F in that area of the flight envelope. In terms of deck handling, both aircraft were stable, even in crosswinds. Yet despite substantial improvements in the F4U, it was always inferior to the F6F in the ability of the pilot to see while on the ground or flight deck.

One can never underestimate the importance of good handling and visibility around the boat or on the flight deck. Accidents often resulted in more aircraft and pilots lost than in actual combat. Accident rates for the F6F were substantially lower than for the F4U throughout the war. It must be understood that the Navy was always willing to trade a little performance for safety and no one could credibly argue that the F6F was not the better fighter in terms of safe carrier operations.

While the F4U was far from ideal flying around the boat, it proved to be a very capable fighter away from the ship. Early models were poor climbers and slow accelerating in level flight. Nonetheless, high-speed handling was outstanding. If used according to its strengths, it could easily dominate the Japanese fighters. At low levels, the F4U was considerably faster than the F6F. This is attributed to the use of direct ram air into the intake system. In the simplest of explanations, this acted much like a supercharger, providing for pressure air and thus, a more dense air charge. On the other hand, Grumman preferred to route intake air through the accessory section where it was warmed prior to entering the carburetor. This was in line with Grumman's conservative design approach. Pre-warming the intake air eliminated the problem of carburetor icing that would often lead to the engine losing power, or simply stopping altogether.

What this boils down to is that the F4U had more power available at low altitude and that is reflected in a speed differential of nearly 30 mph at sea level. In exchange, the F4U risked carburetor icing, especially under certain weather conditions.

Maneuverability is a subjective issue, but I will delve into it using available data and calculations.

First, let's examine an Energy Management Diagram created by one of our Trainers; Badboy, and currently part of his excellent energy management article located at SimHQ here. I suggest reviewing the article so as to understand what the diagram demonstrates. This diagram is based upon the Aces High F6F-5 and F4U-1C. Nonetheless, it generally represents real world reports and performance calculations, although some other sources give the Hellcat an even larger advantage.



Rather than repeat what Badboy states in his article, I will simply state that the F6F could easily turn inside the F4U. You might question this because these aircraft were of similar weight and the F6F's wing area is only 20 square feet greater than that of the F4U. What apparently makes the difference is the lift coefficient. In Francis Dean's epic work on US WWII fighters, he calculates a minimum turn radius index based upon how much a wing is loaded divided by how efficient the wing is in lifting. The Maximum Lift Coefficients used by Dean are 2.27 for the F6F-5 and 1.48 for the F4U-1D. Dean uses test data for 3g stall speeds, which corresponds to 139 IAS for the F6F-5 and 172.5 mph IAS for the F4U-1D. Resulting calculations show an index differential of 35% favoring the F6F.

However, turning ability alone does not establish a winner. Both aircraft were very capable fighters and many consider the F4U superior overall. Each has its proponents and detractors. Grumman never improved rearward visibility, which virtually everyone who flew the plane in combat thought was its single greatest weakness.

Maximum speed issues have been discussed elsewhere in this thread. Let it be stated that there was no great difference between them at their critical altitudes.

If we examine how each type impacted the war, we can only conclude that the F6F was a more important fighter than the F4U. Because it was aboard carriers in mid 1943, the F6F fought the major air battles of the Pacific war and utterly crushed Japanese Naval air power. Yet, had the F4U passed carrier qualification a year sooner and had been aboard the carriers, the result would have been the same. Although statistical evidence suggests that the F4U may have suffered greater loss.

Final war time stats give the F6F a 19:1 kill to loss ratio, while the F4U comes in with an 11:1 ratio. Both are impressive, but the Hellcat's borders on rediculous.

Another interesting fact not generally known centers on the F6F and F4U as bomber escorts. Generally, most people think of the P-51 as the premier bomber escort of WWII. Yet, within the context of their environment, the Hellcats and Corsairs did an equally impressive job. From December of 1944 through mid August of 1945, Navy bombers (SB2C and TBMs) escorted by F6Fs and/or F4Us suffered only 8 aircraft shot down by Japanese fighters.... just eight. Moreover, many of these raids were over the Japanese home islands.

Maybe we should let the Japanese tell which they thought was the better of the two. Historian and author Henry Sakaida surveyed a number of surviving Japanese aces and when asked what American fighter they feared most, the majority said, "the Hellcat". Some examples:

Sadumu Komachi- "I think the best enemy fighter plane I fought against was the F6F. It was faster than our Zero and more powerful. It could dogfight, whereas the F4U could not. There was nothing more frightening than a Hellcat on your tail."

Takeo Tanaimizu- "The F4U was a tough plane, your bullets would just bounce off. I think the toughest opponent was the Grumman F6F. They could maneuver and roll, whereas planes like the P-38 and F4U made hit and run passes. The F6F could actually dogfight with us, and it was much faster and more powerful than our Zero."

Saburo Sakai- "The F6F was the best U.S. Navy fighter. I fought them over Iwo Jima for the first time in June of 1944 and I was shocked at how much Grummans had improved since 1942."

Sadaaki Akamtsu- "In my opinion, the P-51 was the most dangerous American fighter because of its incredible speed. After the P-51 I believe the F6F was the most dangerous, because it was faster and more maneuverable than my Raiden."

You can draw your own conclusions as to which was better, but within the context of history, there's little doubt about which was the war-winning fighter in the Pacific. It shot down more Japanese aircraft than the F4U, P-51, P-47 and P-38 combined. It scored the highest number of kills by one pilot during one sortie (9 kills, 2 probables). History shows that the honor of most important Naval fighter goes to the Grumman F6F.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 01:46:31 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2006, 02:30:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SMIDSY
WAIT!! the F4U was in service in the 70s? by whom? not the US, thats for sure.


yea, smidsy. its pretty cool when u think about it. El Salvador flew the last known Corsair mission in 1971. the US had already retired their F4U's sometime in the late 60's.
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2006, 03:12:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SgtPappy
yea, smidsy. its pretty cool when u think about it. El Salvador flew the last known Corsair mission in 1971. the US had already retired their F4U's sometime in the late 60's.


All F4Us were retired from US front-line service in 1954, although some served in Naval Reserve units until 1957.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2006, 03:28:49 PM »
Widewing,

I knew I would get a good reply from you I just didn't know if you would catch this post. Anyway here it goes.

Banjo music please.....

You said

1.
Quote
In terms of handling, the F6F was superior, especially "around the boat". Benign stall characteristics, good view of the flight deck and a wing that generated tremendous lift all contributed to the Hellcat being a safe and easy fighter to operate from a carrier. On the other hand, the F4U stalled far more violently, and visibility over the long nose was very poor. Stall characteristics improved a great deal with the addition of a wing spoiler to counter the violent wing drop of early aircraft, but it never came close to the F6F in that area of the flight envelope. In terms of deck handling, both aircraft were stable, even in crosswinds. Yet despite substantial improvements in the F4U, it was always inferior to the F6F in the ability of the pilot to see while on the ground or flight deck.


The fact is that most of the handling problems experianced on the early F4U's were resolved by the summer of 1943 including the asymetrical stall, debounded landing gear, raised pilots seat. This aircraft essentially remained the same in terms of handling through the entire production run through 1952.

If you read my signuature at the bottom of my post you will see that Tommy Blackburn Commander of the VF-17 Jolly Rodgers felt that the F4U not being deployed on ships was a logistics problem caused by the Navy not wanting to interrupt the parts deployment and maintenance of the already Grumman Navy. The F6F and F4F shared many parts and maintainance practices so it was an easy decision to go with the F6F and leave the F4U on the shore until performance became a priority.

Next you posted Badboys chart and stated this in regard to turn performance.

2.
Quote
Rather than repeat what Badboy states in his article, I will simply state that the F6F could easily turn inside the F4U. You might question this because these aircraft were of similar weight and the F6F's wing area is only 20 square feet greater than that of the F4U. What apparently makes the difference is the lift coefficient. In Francis Dean's epic work on US WWII fighters, he calculates a minimum turn radius index based upon how much a wing is loaded divided by how efficient the wing is in lifting. The Maximum Lift Coefficients used by Dean are 2.27 for the F6F-5 and 1.48 for the F4U-1D. Dean uses test data for 3g stall speeds, which corresponds to 139 IAS for the F6F-5 and 172.5 mph IAS for the F4U-1D. Resulting calculations show an index differential of 35% favoring the F6F.


This is one of the great myths in fighter aircraft lure.

Remember the Pitot tube error that Corkey Meyer used to say the F6F was as fast as the F4U, well it also makes the F6F fly like a hovercraft if you read the IAS and not the CAS.  In fact the F6F-5N at Pax river had a power on stall of 20Knots!! No wonder the Clmax came back skewed.

The numbers used by Francis Dean are calculated from the JFC in Pax River. They are not referenced to test conditions, power condition, weight and they are not converted into CAS.

The real EM diagrams look nothing like that when both A/C weight 12,000lbs. In fact the F4U would appear to be somewhat superior at equal loading.

In mock dogfights the F4U-1 has out turned the likes of the P-47C, P-51A, P-38G, FW190A and P-51B.

First the F4U from the appendices of the POH

 

Now the F6F-5



Also when it comes to K/D and loss ratio the Navy needs to be somewhat embarrassed by it's rempant overclaiming.

The fact is the FM-2 flying from Carriers claimed a 32 to 1 kill ratio and F4U pilots flying from carriers claimed a 20 to 1 ratio. Navy F6F pilots flying from land bases only claimed a 5 to 1 K/D.

So apparently under the same circumstances the F4U and F6F had nearly identical K/D's.

I did not list individual pilots (especially enemy) but I will say this. Any evaluation between the two A/C by an independant body has always come back in favor of the F4U even when the F6F was flown by the likes of Butch O'Hare the F4U proved superior as an Air Combat machine.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 03:30:56 PM by F4UDOA »

Offline Whisky58

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« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2006, 04:55:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
One seldom addressed issue with the F4U is that it failed carrier compatibility trials. ]

Some blatant jingoism and Royal Ensign waving here, but worth mentioning that the Corsair was initially considered unsuitable for deck operations by the US Navy.  The Royal Navy had other ideas though and RN Corsairs were being used in carrier ops 9 months before the USN.
UK took delivery of 2012 Corsairs.  British Corsairs had 16inch clipped off wings to allow below deck stowage in the smaller RN carriers!  These clipped wing Corsairs must have had a hell of a rate of roll.

Regards :)
Whisky

Offline Greebo

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« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2006, 05:46:32 PM »
The clipped wings had a helpful side effect too, they tended to increase the sink rate on finals and reduce the Corsair's tendency to float over the arrestor wires.

One thing that helped the RN adjust to the F4U was their experience with the Seafire, which was even more awkward to land on a CV. Apart from the well known gear weakness, the Seafire had the same poor visibility over the nose. The technique developed for the Seafire was to make a tightly curving approach onto the deck, in order to keep it in sight, straightening up at the last second. The same thing worked with the Corsair.

The late appearance of the F4U on USN CVs was as much to do with logistics and training as anything else. The USN didn't want to have to supply two lots of spares across the Pacific to their CVs, so VF-17 apart,  most of the first F4Us went to the Marines.

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2006, 06:48:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy
Well this can be argued from so many angles that its almost impossible.

For the PTO I would say the F6F was the MVP. It won air supperiority over the IJN something that no other allied plane managed to do.



Tex



The Flying Tigers did the same thing, albeit against the IJAF.



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Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2006, 08:46:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
All F4Us were retired from US front-line service in 1954, although some served in Naval Reserve units until 1957.

My regards,

Widewing


o crap.. i put 60's.. lol i meant 50's.. thnx for the correction Widewing
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Offline stantond

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« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2006, 10:07:59 PM »
All things considered, my historical facts aren't that accurate.  However, they do support my position.


Regards,

Malta

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2006, 11:05:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by stantond
While the F6F did hold a higher kill/death ratio than the F4U, it was not it's sucessor.  If the F4U were cleared for carrier operations sooner, it would have seen more action and gotten more kills.  The Hellcat and Bearcat were obsoleted by the F4U variants, as such the F4U was able to fulfill the future roles better than those planes.

I haven't looked up the data, but I have a very hard time believing the F6F (and F8F) were as fast or faster than the F4U.  The F4U had a lower drag airframe with the gull wing configuration and extensive drag reduction was done by the NACA before ww2.  The F4U saw much more service after some operational issues were worked out than any F6F or F8F variants and was used long after the introduction of jets into the early 1970's.  

I would be interested to read in reports why the Navy phased out the F6F (or F8F) and kept the F4U for 40 years.  Jets played a part in that decision for sure, but whether it was range, durability, ordinance capability, or maintainablity that edged out the F4U from its simliar era planes is a mystery to me.  On the topic of speed again, how many F6F (F8F) planes were used in civilian racing?  None that I have ever seen, but the F4U (and P51) were top contenders.

p.s. talking about the game now: if the F4U-4 had 4 20mm hispando's, then it might be one of the 'best plane in the game' and worthy of the perks.  Above 250 ias, the P51, 109, 190, and La7 are more maneuverable in the game.  Many planes in the game are more manueverable below 200 ias (including the F6F).  One could say it has a combination of attributes that make their sum greater than the parts, but I would not after flying it.  Marginally better acceleration and a slighty higher top speed than the -1C with inferior 50 cal guns doesn't count for much in a fight.



Well, the F8F was not made obsolete by the F4U.

They had completely different missions. The F8F was an air superiority fighter, the best ever to operate from a carrier and possibly the best ever built by anyone prior to jets. On the other hand, the F4U-4 was a fighter-bomber. It was fast, climbed well and able to handle anything it might encounter... except the F8F, especially the F8F-2. F8Fs were short range fighters, with a limited bomb load. The F4U-4 put the A into attack. When the Korean war broke out, F4U-4s and F4U-5s were an important aircraft. They were essential to the attack mission during the opening months. They were joined by the heavy lifting AD Skyraider, which could haul twice the weight of ordnance of the Corsair and were better armored to withstand tripleA. By 1952, the F4U's days were numbered. New jets could haul more bombs and get to and from the target much faster.

F4Us, in various models were in front line service with the USN for 12 years. Remarkable back then, but short-lived by today's standards (the F-14 was just retired after 32 years of service and the B-52 has surpassed 51 years of service). F4Us remained in service for one reason; the attack mission. By the late 1940s, the F4U was obsolete as a fighter, with new jet designs filling the fighter role, allowing F4U units to concentrate on delivering ordnance, which they did very well.

As to F8Fs in racing...Someone mentioned Rare Bear, which attained 542 mph on the downwind leg of its record speed run. By the way, Rare bear hit those speeds while flying just 100 feet above ground level. This same plane also holds the time to climb record as well.

In AH2, the F4U-4 is among the very best in the game. I believe that it is the best fighter in the game. Nothing is faster at altitude and only the Tempest is notably faster on the deck. None of the fast planes, save the Spitfire Mk.XIV, can afford to maneuver with the F4U-4 for very long. It will out-climb the Tempest, P-51D and La-7. It will haul more ordnance than any of the so-called "Uber" fighters. It's only limitation is a rather short range on internal fuel.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline stantond

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« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2006, 01:28:24 PM »
Widewing,

It may be worth your while (or not) to contact the persons at:

http://www.history.navy.mil/index.html

and explain to them how the F6F's speed is too low, they have slighted the F8F's greatness,  and the F4U was not a fighter aircraft in Korea!  Here is another link for historical aircraft:

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org4-8.htm

If you believe the information on the Naval history website is wrong or lacking, maybe you should try and have it changed?   U.S. government tax dollars are at work there and if their information is wrong, it should be changed.  I'll leave that up to your discretion.


Regards,

Malta

p.s. in AH the Bearcat would be worth the F4U-4's perk points with it's 4-20mm cannons and climb rate advantage.  I have not found the F4U-4 to be a great climbing aircraft in AH (compared to Spitfires, 109's, the La7 and Tempest).

Offline Greebo

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« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2006, 01:58:07 PM »
IIRC the first batches or Bearcats had four 0.5 in Brownings. The idea was for a light, fast climbing interceptor to deal with Kamikaze attacks, so low weight was more important than firepower. By the Korean war the Bearcat (F8F-1B?) had the four 20mms for the ground attack role.

So in the highly unlikely event of AH getting an F8F for the MA, it would be armed with four 0.5in guns. I'd still fly it though. :)

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2006, 02:32:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
F6F was definitly one of the planes with greatest impact on the war. Its appearance instantly shifted the advantage to the american side in naval wars.

Beware of nostalgia:

IMHO, what we all need to remember in any of these discussions is the true impact on the war of any one piece of equipment.  The only true war-changing piece of gear in the entire war was a single B-29 carrying Fatboy.  The F6F didn't strategically change the war in the pacific--tactically perhaps, but the war didn't get easier in '43 when the Hellcat showed up.  The bloodiest battles of the war all occurred afterwords.

Across the pond, German tank technology was superior to allied.    The German MG42 was the finest MG in the war.  Again, on the losing side.  

So, going back to my original point, tactical advantage gained through technology does not necessarily, and with respect to this argument, did not equal strategic gain.  The Hellcat was an excellent plane, purpose designed and built, but did not confer a strategic benefit to the war in the pacific.  If the Hellcat had never been built, and the Navy procured F4U's in their place, would we have shot down less planes?  Lengthened the war?  I believe ultimately, kill numbers would have been the same, and obviously, the war would have still ended sometime in early August '45.