F4U vs. F6F

[Widewing]

Originally posted by stantond
Widewing,

It may be worth your while (or not) to contact the persons at:

http://www.history.navy.mil/index.html

and explain to them how the F6F's speed is too low, they have slighted the F8F's greatness,  and the F4U was not a fighter aircraft in Korea!  Here is another link for historical aircraft:

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org4-8.htm

If you believe the information on the Naval history website is wrong or lacking, maybe you should try and have it changed?   U.S. government tax dollars are at work there and if their information is wrong, it should be changed.  I'll leave that up to your discretion.


Regards,

Malta

p.s. in AH the Bearcat would be worth the F4U-4's perk points with it's 4-20mm cannons and climb rate advantage.  I have not found the F4U-4 to be a great climbing aircraft in AH (compared to Spitfires, 109's, the La7 and Tempest).

You're killing me Stantond... You have a marginal understanding of aviation history and yet you attempt to lecture...

I have already posted a link to a test report done by the Technical Air Intelligence Command, that pooh-poohs the Standard Aircraft Characteristics sheet, which were and still are, useless documents for historians. There are several tests of the F6F-5 that used independent airspeed measuring equipment that clearly show what the F6F was capable of. Then we have Grumman's own data, which mimics that of TAIC.

I'm at a loss to understand what you are talking about in regard to the F4U in Korea. F4Us, teamed with the ADs, were the Navy's primary attack aircraft in Korea. After the MiG-15 showed up, the F4Us and ADs were often escorted by F9Fs.

As to the F4U-4 in Aces High... About 9 months ago I tested every fighter in the game to determine speeds at various altitudes, acceleration and climb rates. At the time, the F4U-4 ranked 5th in climb rate from sea level to 10,000 feet. Only the 109G-10, 109G-6, 109G-2 and Spit14 climbed faster. The G-2 got there just 0.84 seconds faster, a statistical dead heat. The F4U-4 got to 10k 5 seconds faster than the 190D-9, 6.5 seconds faster than the Tempest, and 7.7 seconds faster than the La-7. I appreciate your opinion, but I prefer data and the data says different.

The current best climbers, in order of least time required to 10k, are:

Spitfire Mk.XVI 1:38.38
Bf 109K-4  1:43.19
Spitfire Mk.XIV  1:44.69
Spitfire Mk.VIII  1:44.72
Bf 109G-14  1:45.72
Bf 109G-6  1:53.79
Bf 109G-2 1:54.62
F4U-4  1:55.46

By the way, the F8F-1, the model in service when the war ended, was armed with four .50 caliber Brownings. Cannons were fitted to the F8F-1B (126 delivered between 2/46 and 2/48) and the F8F-2 (293 delivered between 11/47 and 4/49). France used F8Fs in combat thru 1954. F8Fs began being replaced by the F2H Banshee in late 1949, and with the F9F Panther in early 1950.

My regards,

Widewing

[Grits]

Originally posted by stantond
I have not found the F4U-4 to be a great climbing aircraft in AH (compared to Spitfires, 109's, the La7 and Tempest).

Read below.

Originally posted by Widewing
In AH2, the F4U-4 is among the very best in the game. I believe that it is the best fighter in the game. Nothing is faster at altitude and only the Tempest is notably faster on the deck. None of the fast planes, save the Spitfire Mk.XIV, can afford to maneuver with the F4U-4 for very long. It will out-climb the Tempest, P-51D and La-7. It will haul more ordnance than any of the so-called "Uber" fighters. It's only limitation is a rather short range on internal fuel.

I agree with Widewing's assesment, the F4U-4 is the best (non-jet) fighter in the game.

[Flaps]

You mean my assesment 20 posts ago?

[DamnedRen]

Ya know, if the truth be known I'd have to say the guys that actually flew Cats liked them the best and those that flew Hogs liked them the best. This suggests that if it's yer 6 in a sling and yer plane kept you alive through it then it must be a pretty nice ride.

Now that's real life....

If yer talking about what we do here...one thing you may want to think about it just how many guys do you think really stayed in a turn fight in a 1v1 or 1v2 with many other enemy planes within visual range?

The very cool thing we get to do here is actually fly the turns and tactics that were employed without having to deal with the trama of dyin. Those guys positioned themselves with "any" advantage they might muster and went in for pass and bug.  

I'm an ex-Flying Tiger and to listen to Dick Rossi talk about Chenaults training it was more of a "get alt, dive in, hit em on a pass, and keep of trucking. Extend, grab and do it again. Never turn with a zeke was the order of the day.

[Saxman]

I thought I remember reading or hearing somewhere that the F4U is that she turned TOO well, tricking a lot of pilots into thinking they could engage a sustained turning fight, at which point the nasty departure characteristics usually kicked in.

[F4UDOA]

Saxman,

I think what you read is that the F4U has a great instantanious turn rate. If you look at the two charts I posted for the G-Load limits you can see that the F4U can pull 3G's at 140Knots IAS while the F6F-5 can do the same at 150Knots IAS. In CAS it is much closer because you have to add 3.5 Knots to the F4U speed and subtract 2knots from the F6F-5. But still that leaves the F4U with a 5Knot advantage in instantanious turning ability over the F6F. And this chart is calibrated to equal weight of 12,000lbs so the F6F is losing 200+ extra pounds that it would normally carry in relation to the F4U.

This was essentially proved by the SEPT (Socioty of experamental test pilots) in 1989 when they flight tested the two A/C. They did two test that show this and the F6F actually was significantly underweight for these test.

Here are the two test. Keep in mind that the F6F should weight at least 200lbs more than the F4U at the same loading condtion. So it is 500lbs total under weight relative to the F4U

1. 3G accelerated stall decaying airspeed (less than 1Knts per second)

F6F-5 10,681lbs

F6F-5 stall warning 100knots
       3G   Stall at 95knots

F4U-1D (FG-1D) 11,055lbs

F4U-1D Stall warning 103Knots
           3G Stall 98Knots

2. Level 180 Degree heading change 220Knots IAS 10,000FT METO power (max Continous).

F6F-5 9.9 seconds
F4U-1D 8.5 seconds

So in the instantious turn regime the F4U can be considered superior even thought the sustained turn would not be as good. However at altitudes where power to weight are optimal the sustained performance would be at it's best such as sea level, 20K etc.

[Patches1]

When considering the preferences of Japanese pilots over which aircraft they prefered to "dogfight" ...the F6F seems to be their choice. I wonder why?

Japanese pilots were trained how to counter turning manuvers found in the
typical "dogfight" and the F6F seemed to satisfy that "challenge" in which the Japanese Bushido Warrior found himself against the F6F. What he didn't like was the fast slashing attack of the F4U which, if wisely flown would extend with speed, regain altitude and repeat the attack. So, to me, Japanese pilots' distaste for combat in the traditional "dogfighting" against the F4U speaks highly of the F4U's and strengthens, not lessens, the F4U effectiveness against the Japanese versus the F6F.

Granted...I'm no expert. For those interested in the Air War in the South Pacific in WWII....I recommend, "Fire in the Sky", written by Eric Bergerund.

For those Corsair enthusiasts flying in Aces High...keep it high...keep it fast...and fly to the six.

[BluKitty]

"Whispering Death" .... does sound kind of like something they might have feared.

And turning Isn't eveything ..... the rudder & gull wings give the F4u a  barrel roll like no other..... not like you'd want to be knife fighting with zeke's IRL though.

[F4UDOA]

My favorite nickname for the F6F is the "Whistling Outhouse" followed closely by "The box the F4U came in".

[SgtPappy]

wow everyone... thanks for the information! it helps.. and cheers to u widewing for that convincing writeup. at first i started leaning toward the F4U, but that writeup stating the Hellcats better overall maneuverability (which can be argued) and the fear it caused among axis pilots made me rethink my 'leaning'.

but is there any1 out there who like Hellcats better? if so, why? i'd like to know.

i see F6F pilots beating La-7's and spits outta the skies regularly, so speak up Hellcat fans!

[Brooke]

Originally posted by DamnedRen
I'm an ex-Flying Tiger

An ex-WWII real-life Flying Tiger pilot?  (Don't want to appear gullible here, but it's possible.)

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Brooke
An ex-WWII real-life Flying Tiger pilot?  (Don't want to appear gullible here, but it's possible.)

Bet it's the air cargo operation.

- oldman

[Gooss]

Wasn't it "Whistling Death"?  Not "Whispering"?

The Hellcat is a helluva plane.  

The Hog has gullwings.

How is that a tough decision?

HONK!
Gooss

[SgtPappy]

lol .. but i was thinking... correct me if im wrong but wen the hellcat and the corsair were using the same engine, (P&W R-2800) the hellcat could climb better. it could perform better in many things except speed and roll i think... it also technically carried more ammo. 400 rpg, while the corsair carried 375 for 2 guns and 400 for the other 4. not big, but just saying. the grumman design had less armor but was structurally sturdier, and , as a result could take a bit more punishment.

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Oldman731
Bet it's the air cargo operation.

- oldman

Correct, oldman. But, it WAS started by Bob Prescott (original Flying Tiger) and even Pappy Boyinton worked for us when it first got going. We have annual reunions and Dick Rossi (original Flying Tiger) was always at em if yer interested in old tales of the real  thing. I went to work for FTL in '81 and stayed with them until we were bought out by FedEx.

Here's the home page....http://www.flyingtigersavg.com/