Islam in Afganisan is alive and well

[lazs2]

dred... from what I have read... the only thing nobel about their way of dealing with each other and the land was the fact that they had a huge infant mortality rate and a short life span so had little effect on the ecology...

Theirs was and (in some cases) is a culture of pain and suffering... freezing and burning and dieing of everything that comes down the pike and starving like beasts in the field... a culture of cruelty...

now they get italian guys to run their casinos....  the africans that live here live like former african kings.

Their culture sucked.

lazs

[Stringer]

Yep....We really helped out Vietnam, I mean that whole country is a democracy...oh, wait..no it's not.......and who can forget Granada, that was a huge coup for Truth, Justice and the American Way..

Well at least we got Panama straightened out.  Plus Nicaragua was saved by Ollie North so we can put that in the plus column.

Of course Somalia was another success story, oh wait...ok what about Kuwait....yes We liberated Kuwait from autocratic rule....oh wait, we didn't do that either.

Of course, the people in Iraq can go to markets without fear of bombings, no they can't do that either.....

Replacing one fear with another fear is not giving them protection.

I saw Bush over the weekend stating that we will or are implementing a successful strategy for Iraq, and I thought to myself, 3 years later we will now begin to implement a successful strategy in Iraq?

Overthrowing a brutal dictator is a noble thing to do, but overthrowing a dictator and not be able to handle the predictable vacuum that occurs is negating a noble intention with poor execution.

[Goomba]

I remain eternally suspicious of any ideology/ government/system/culture which operates on a premise of accepting converts/citizens/members, while simultaneously threatening to kill or punish or imprison any who choose to move away...i.e. Wahhabist Islam & Sharia Law, the former USSR, the current DPRK, etc...

What I can't grasp is how the people at the top of such groups can maintain the self-delusion of their righteousness, while the very population they are dependent on for their power struggles mightily to get away as fast as they can?  Why would you even want those people to stay?  Doesn't the existance of laws which criminalize thoughts or questions or challenges to authority suggest that the system might be flawed?  One might argue that a simple comparison of the pipeline of individuals moving from Western values to the rigidity if Sharia Islam, vs. those attempting to leave that system and make a life in the midst of Western values would be an interesting indicator of validity?

It almost seems some kind of pathology, to be so disconnected from the reality of the population.  Or perhaps it's simply the ease by which one can label dissatisfaction, or independent thinking, as insanity or criminal tendencies or sedition.  Maybe the failure to understand has less to do with specific philosophical differences, and really comes down to what "freedom" actually means to an individual or group.  For us, freedom means a near limitless ability to make independent choices about life, work, faith, etc...while in these other societies, the only freedom they may understand or accept might be the freedom to be like everyone else, or simply to choose what village you'll live in.  I don't mean to trivialize, only to suggest that some people may be culturally incapable of understanding our flavor of freedom, and what the word can potentially mean for them.  Some may not ever want the freedom we demand...maybe they're too insecure otherwise, and appreciate a rigid system which precludes the need for independent thought?

In the final analysis of my own worldview, if you're not free to leave, you were never free for staying.  

This leads me to wonder if certain systems only pay lip service to politically acceptable concepts like freedom, while the truth behind them is as old and dirty as human history...to keep those on the top, at the top...and absolutley nothing more.  If you can convince the little people that they have all the freedom they'll ever need, you can stay in control.

If this is so, and the cultural gap is too wide, and moral relativism is invalid, what do we do?  Turn away from that which we call inhuman and unjust and let others live as they will, or insist on imposing our way?  Will taking a live-and-let-live strategy work, if the other side's strategy is "sooner or later, the world MUST be ours and those who will not comply must die"?  What happens if that philosophy finally gains enough strength to begin imposing that ideology on the whole world?  Not like a similar chain of events never happened before...

Or the last possibility...we are all terribly misinformed, on both sides, by the fact that we ALL get our information second hand, and from unreliable sources.  Certainly, I know I can't trust any Western media outlet to NOT inject it's own flavor of political leanings into the mix, and I'm damned sure outlets like al-Jazeera are just as bound to the expectations of their customer base as Western outlets are to theirs.

I, for one, have no confidence anymore in my ability to sort wheat from chaff...

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by lazs2
.

Their culture sucked.

lazs

I'd almost be willing to bet the end of that statement would go something like..


"Cause my great grandpa told me so" LMAO

Our infant mortality rate wasnt a whole lot better.
We froze and burned also.

the Largest single killer of the american Indian was either white men. or the diseases we brought with us.

Be that as it may. Their culture was still their culture.
and they thrived in much greater numbers even with their hardships untill we came along

[Seagoon]

Hello Sirloin,

Originally posted by SirLoin
HI Seagoon.

You are re-enforcing my statement...Religion & politics don't mesh.

The Koran is filled with passages of "Kill the Infedels!"..and maybe 1 or 2 passages of "Love thy brother"

Religion is scary when intertwined with politics .

The problem is that when we look at Islam, we generally try to force it through a  Western grid and consequently we can't understand why "religion" has such a dominant role in the politics of Middle Eastern states.

The answer to that question is that Islam from its inception was designed not merely to be a faith, but the organizing principle of the entire society. In Islam, the head of the Religion (the Prophet Muhammad originally) and later the Caliphs, was also the leader of the faithful. The role of the prophet was to teach the people the commands of God, and the role of the Caliph was to ensure that they were carried out. Islam only acknowledges two nations - the Dar-El-Islam (nations of Islam) and the Dar-El-Harb (nations of war) and Sharia Law is supposed to be the civil code followed and obeyed throughout  the Dar-El-Islam.

As such there is simply no room for Democracy in an Islamic state. How can one "vote" on the commands of God? And what need is there for political parties when Islam is supposed to consist of one unified body - the Ummah, or faithful - lead by one leader - the Caliph. It is a totalitarian system designed to implement a Utopian society. Therefore even in the "parties" that exist to advance Islamic ideals, as in Communism there is an acknowledgment that their ultimate role is to bring about a pan-Islamic unity. Hence the Muslim Brotherhood creed is intended to be a distillation of the Islamic way forward for all Muslims -

"Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."

There have been attempts to create secular Islamic states, most notably Turkey, but most of those attempts either have failed or are in the process of failing. The past few elections in Turkey and Egypt, for instance, have seen a dramatic increase in the representation of self-consciously Islamic parties dedicated to returning those nations to a Sharia law footing. The current Islamic revival means that this process will only progress.

What does that mean for us in the West? Well it means that the possibility of creating stable permanent Democracies in Islamic cultures is roughly zero. As hateful as the idea is to many, there are reasons why representative Democracy was one of the results of the religious Reformation in Europe. Those Democracies were not possible until, in Christianity, the overriding concept of Constantinianism which inextricably wed Church and State under one ruler was overthrown. No such Reformation has occured within Islam, and isn't really possible. This is because while in Christianity church and state were supposed to be two separate spheres, and so the Reformation returned us to the biblical model, in Islam the Quran neither assumes nor allows for such a separation. To allow it, is to become an apostate in the eyes of the faithful.

- SEAGOON

[beet1e]

Seagoon - great post. There will now be three of us at the dinner table - you, me, and Drediock. Very few others, it would seem, have the mental capacity to understand that in certain Middle Eastern societies, there is no room for "democracy". I've spent only about 4 days in the Middle East, but it taught me a lot. Much more than I could have learned by sitting in a café in London listening to some guys speak Arabic. One wonders if the American president himself will ever have the acumen to make sense of your post.

[Toad]

I hope you don't sprain your arm.

[SOB]

Beet, I don't know if you're being sarcastic or you just haven't been reading, but I think Seagoon's position is that Islam is wrong/evil in the same vein as fascism or totalitarianism and it needs to be stamped out.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by SOB
Beet, I don't know if you're being sarcastic or you just haven't been reading, but I think Seagoon's position is that Islam is wrong/evil in the same vein as fascism or totalitarianism and it needs to be stamped out.

See now in their eyes they see our culture as wrong and evil in the same vein.

The point is not whether it is right or wrong. but that we keep trying to apply our culture and mindset to their culture.
Just as we dont and dont want to understand theirs . They dont and dont want to understand ours.

Reminds me of an old quote. I forget who said it but its true.

"there is no real right or wrong really. It is only a common way of thinking that makes it so"

Their common way of thinking is not the same as ours.
therefore we see theirs as being wrong. And vise verse

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
One wonders if the American president himself will ever have the acumen to make sense of your post.
k

Don`t know which "ONE" you are talking about here, but I know of "ONE" who didn`t get it.
Boat. Missed it.

[SOB]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
See now in their eyes they see our culture as wrong and evil in the same vein.

The point is not whether it is right or wrong. but that we keep trying to apply our culture and mindset to their culture.
Just as we dont and dont want to understand theirs . They dont and dont want to understand ours.

Reminds me of an old quote. I forget who said it but its true.

"there is no real right or wrong really. It is only a common way of thinking that makes it so"

Their common way of thinking is not the same as ours.
therefore we see theirs as being wrong. And vise verse

One thing you're missing is that when you've got a god on your side, there is a right and a wrong.  Your god's way is right, anything contrary is wrong.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by SOB
Beet, I don't know if you're being sarcastic or you just haven't been reading, but I think Seagoon's position is that Islam is wrong/evil in the same vein as fascism or totalitarianism and it needs to be stamped out.

I was referring to seagoon's most recent post and none other. I read it again and didn't see anything about Islam needing to be stamped out.

Don`t know which "ONE" you are talking about here, but I know of "ONE" who didn`t get it. Boat. Missed it. - jack

Well pardon me for having an alternative point of view - I realise how unacceptable that is in certain circles. But my view is at least supported by the fact that I have actually been to the Middle East, if only briefly, and seen what goes on. Hence, I have seen islam in action. Indeed, in the countries I visited it's hard to miss. So... have yourself a Turkish coffee, and a smoke from one of those bong things (tried it once, but smoking's not my thing!) and you can pretend to be in the Arab world!

[Toad]

Originally posted by beet1e
But my view is at least supported by the fact that I have actually been to the Middle East, if only briefly, and seen what goes on.  

An you are now an instant, arm-spraining expert.

Well DONE, sir!

[Shuckins]

Aw Toad.  Beetle's just a joshin' ya.  He's too intelligent to brag about having special knowledge of the middle east just because he spent four whole entire days there.  

You ARE joshin' aren't ya Beet?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by SOB
One thing you're missing is that when you've got a god on your side, there is a right and a wrong.  Your god's way is right, anything contrary is wrong.

I didnt menmtion that but that holds true as well.
they beleive God is on their side and thus they are right.
Just as we beleive God is on our side and thus we feel our side is right.

Be they right or wrong
The one thing they have is they by and large are more rigid and dedicated to their religion then we tend to be in the west, and seemingly become less so with each passing generation.

They, as someone else mentioned havent changed in hundreds of years

 Where we, by and large have taken to only picking and choosing only what parts we wish to follow if we choose to follow at all. Becomming less and less dedicated and faithful to ours.

Cept for many a couple hours on Sunday

I think even Seagoon could agree with that statement