Author Topic: Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)  (Read 2996 times)

Offline Toad

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« on: October 04, 2000, 05:35:00 PM »
Well, yet again some keep trying to blame inanimate objects for the actions of the human beings that use those objects. Thus we get the old, tired “Guns were designed to kill. Guns kill. We must get rid of guns.” argument.

Here’s one of my “hot button” issues. Death by automobile.

Autos obviously were not designed to kill, but they are just as efficient at it as guns, if not more so.  Is the automobile then held accountable? Are there cries for confiscation and destruction of all automobiles? No, of course not.

Why is that? Because in this case, society is willing to accept the deaths of even larger number of individuals in exchange for being able to travel 60 miles in one hour to go see a sporting event or run down to the 7-11 for a gallon of milk. This great “boon” to humanity makes the cost in human life acceptable, even commonplace and unremarkable, if theoretically unavoidable.

Guns do not have the same universal acceptance as a necessary part of society that automobiles enjoy. Thus, despite specific and inescapably clear language to the contrary in the Constitution, some feel that it would be fine to deprive others of the right to own and use firearms in a lawful manner.

Let’s look at some numbers and compare them to what Leonid posted about gun statistics in 1997: (Auto numbers from Mothers Against Drunk Driving and US DOT websites)  

Privately owned US firearms: @ 192 million
Registered US Autos & Light Trucks: 198,755,638...amazingly close, eh? Call it 199 million.

US Gun deaths:  32,436
US Vehicle deaths: 41,967

Deaths per Gun:  .00016
Deaths per Vehicle: .00021

While the gross number of deaths are considered “high” in both cases, the percentages are extremely low. Clearly this shows that MOST guns and MOST cars are NOT involved in killing people.

Guns kill more than 11 children and teenagers, ages 19 and under,  every day.

During a typical weekend, an average of one teenager dies each hour in a car crash..
Traffic crashes are the major cause of death for children in the age group 0-14.

More than 35% of all 16-to-20 year-old deaths result from motor vehicle crashes.

Children younger than 13 represented 19 percent of the U.S. population in 1994 and six percent of all motor vehicle deaths. Child deaths have represented about this percentage of vehicle deaths since the early 80's.

Direct medical costs for firearm injuries was $4 billion in 1997. Additional indirect costs, such as lost potential earnings, were estimated at $19 billion.

Medical costs for 1993 traffic crash injuries were approximately $22 billion..

In 1994, the mean direct medical cost per gunshot injury was approximately $17,000, much of which was paid by U.S. taxpayers.

Over 25 percent of the first year medical costs for persons hospitalized as a result of a crash are paid by tax dollars, about two-thirds through Medicaid and one third through Medicare.

One could go on and on with these minor comparisons but it should be obvious that the loss of life, injury and economic costs associated with both of these inanimate objects is very similar.

The key factor is that BOTH of these inanimate classes of device are totally harmless until a human being takes control of the object.

What or who shall control the human being?  

This brings me to what I consider the most important fact. What happens when the automobile is used in a criminal manner? Specifically, let’s look at “drunk driving”.

I consider DUI a totally criminal act, no different than firing a gun into a crowd. You may or may not kill someone but the result depends entirely upon chance. DUI IS violent crime.

During the period 1982 through 1999, approximately 349,472 persons lost their lives in alcohol-related traffic crashes. (NHTSA, 1999)

In 1997 there were 41,967 traffic fatalities and of these 16,189 were alcohol related fatalities. In other words, 38.6% of all traffic deaths were alcohol related.

In 1998 15,935 people were killed in alcohol-related traffic crashes---an average of one every 33 minutes.

In 1998 about 630,000 were injured in alcohol-related crashes-an average of one person injured approximately every minute.

Estimates are that 2,104 persons aged 16-20 died in alcohol-related crashes in 1998. (NHTSA, 1999)

Alcohol-related crashes cost society $45 billion, yet this conservative estimate does not include pain, suffering and lost quality of life. These indirect costs raise the alcohol-related crash figure to a staggering $116 billion in 1993. (Miller et al, 1996b)

A drunk driving crash costs innocent victims $26,000. Comparable crime costs per victim: assault-$19,000; robbery-$13,000; motor vehicle theft-$4,000. Yet, the drunk driving crash is the only one of these crimes that is often not a felony for the first offense. (Miller et al, 1996a, 1996b)

Significant statistics that indicate DUI is a major problem? I think so.

Are you amazed that NOT ONE SINGLE STATE in the entire US classifies a DUI as felony on the first offense?

Yes, you can be driving a 3000 pound bullet around at 60 miles an hour (go figure your muzzle energy on THAT one!) in a totally intoxicated state and simply be guilty of a misdemeanor.

In just 4 states is a Second Offense considered a felony and those have time limitations on them.  In all, just 23 States consider DUI a felony offense and most of those only apply to 3rd or 4th violations.

How can all this be? All of those things...except one...that people propose to lower firearm accidents have ALREADY been done in the case of automobiles accidents.

There is a minimum age limit for getting a driver’s license.

There is required training and both written and practical testing that a prospective driver must successfully complete before taking to the road.

Cars themselves are registered and licensed.

Purchases and transfers of cars from one owner to another are closely monitored, recorded and regulated.

New safety devices have been mandated, from seat belts to air bags.

New improvements have been offered by manufacturers, from anti-lock brakes to night vision devices.

None of these has had any effect on automobile deaths and PARTICULARLY not on alcohol related automobile deaths. The death rate has remained essentially constant.

The only thing left is to confiscate all the cars, right?  

No, this simply brings us to the HEART OF THE MATTER. Only when a human being gets behind the wheel does a car become a threat.

 ....and a human is the GREATEST threat when he/she breaks the law no matter what inanimate object they are controlling.

...and the ONLY way you are ever going to bring this problem under control is to DEMAND Responsibility and Accountabilty from those who would abuse the privilege of driving. In other words, you must prosecute the criminals. Tough concept, eh?

Where is the outrage? Where are the cries to reform automobile design/usage/ownership/privileges and lower the death toll? Where is the groundswell of support for MADD against DUI drivers? Where is the determination to stop DUI drivers?

Now, shall we punish ALL DRIVERS for the criminal actions of the few?

No, no one supports that. In fact, it is ridiculous; lucicrous. Yet that is EXACTLY the solution proposed by the anti-gun forces.

Once again, it boils down to two things. Responsibility. Accountability.

Each person must be responsible for their own actions.

Society must hold people accountable for their actions.

US society has been moving away from this concept since the late ‘60’s.

You can be caught driving DUI in Leonid’s State of Washington and NEVER be convicted of a Felony. Because in Washington, it ISN’T a Felony no matter what your blood alcohol level may be; it’s just a misdemeanor. In 1997, 676 citizens of Washington died in traffic fatalities. 44.4% of those (300) were alcohol related fatalities. Nearly 50 % of those killed were killed by drivers BREAKING THE LAW.

This despite the fact that the Washington State Patrol issued 16,629 citations for DUI. Would making DUI a Felony in Washington and coupling that to a mandatory prison sentence save a few lives? I bet that it would. If those 16,000+ folks that got DUI citations from the WSP had spent 6+ months in prison I bet the number of folks DUI would drop dramatically. As an inescapable result, traffic fatalities would drop as well.

Is there ANY evidence that suggest holding criminals accountable for their actions would result in LESS crime?

Well, suprisingly enough, let's look to the "gun problem" for a hint.

Holding criminals accountable WORKS. Speculation? No, there is supporting evidence from Project Exile in Richmond, VA.
 http://www.vahv.org/Exile/Richmond/RchBody.html

The site is worth considerable study, including the links, but here is the “quick and dirty”.

“Project Exile is an expedited federal prosecutive effort by the United States Attorney's Office, in coordination with the Richmond Commonwealth's Attorney's Office and Police Department, to combat Richmond's escalating problem of gun violence. The project has made significant strides since it began on February 28, 1997 against the problem, but reducing gun violence requires a coordinated community response insure continued success...

Project Exile is named for the idea that if the police catch a criminal in Richmond with a gun in a crime, the criminal has forfeited his right to remain in this community, the criminal will face immediate federal prosecution and stiff mandatory federal prison sentences (often five to ten years), and will be "exiled" to federal prison for five+ years. The rule is simply, "No Guns." In the project, the United States Attorney's Office prosecutes all felons with guns, guns in drug trafficking, and gun/domestic violence cases in federal court. No limits are placed regarding numbers of weapons or quantities of drugs involved. When a police officer finds a gun during the officer's duties, the officer pages an A.T.F. agent (24 hours a day). They review the circumstances and determine whether a federal statute applies. If so, federal criminal prosecution is initiated....”

Has it worked? Absolutely! So much so that a similar project, Cease Fire, was tried in Philadelphia with similar results. Check this out:
 http://www.cpcn.com/articles/040600/cs.coverstory1.shtml

“For instance, Maryland passed a one-gun-a-month law in 1995. While the number of legally sold guns has declined, the state’s largest city, Baltimore, continues to have a staggering murder rate almost twice as high as Philadelphia’s. Maryland’s law was based on Virginia’s one-gun-a-month statute, which passed in 1993. Subsequent studies showed that while that flow of illegal guns exported from Virginia to other states had been curtailed, urban gun crime was unaffected. In fact, the homicide rate in the state capital of Richmond rocketed to its highest level ever one year after one-gun-a-month passed.

Richmond, then, is arguably the best case of how gun law enforcement has succeeded where gun-control laws have failed. A city of just 203,000 people, Richmond is one-seventh the size of Philadelphia. Its ghettos are not nearly so large nor so desperate as Philadelphia’s, but for its size, Richmond is a far more violent place. Particularly in the impoverished, largely African-American sections of Richmond, gun violence was out of control for much of the 1990s. By 1996, with a homicide toll of 140, Richmond’s murder rate was among the 10 highest in urban America — more than twice as high as Philadelphia’s and five times higher than New York City’s.

Hundreds of felons with guns were indicted during Exile’s first year alone, and by the middle of 1998, Richmond’s overall violent crime had fallen 60 percent. ...There have also been only 11 murders in Richmond in the first quarter of the year, compared with 20 killings by March 31 a year ago. If the first-quarter rate holds up over the entire year (like it did in 1999), Richmond will have its lowest murder rate since 1970.”

Is it going to work in Philadelphia? Yes, it looks like it will.

“Since January 1999, the federally funded Operation Cease Fire program has hauled more than 300 of Philadelphia’s most egregious gun offenders off the streets and into federal court. In 1999 alone, gun possession indictments by the U.S. Attorney’s Office here more than quintupled from 1998. Out of 173 gun cases disposed of, only one defendant was acquitted, while 149 others simply pleaded guilty and went straight to federal prison.

Philadelphia’s rates of shootings and killings have been dropping steadily since Cease Fire’s launch 15 months ago. And although no one can be certain what role Cease Fire has played in making the city a safer place, it’s hard to imagine how so many dangerous characters could be put out of action without making some impact on crime. The only other program in the country like Cease Fire — Richmond, Virginia’s three-year-old Project Exile — has been widely credited with helping cut that city’s murder rate almost in half.”

Take the guns away from the CRIMINALS! Oh, what a concept!

Put DUI drivers IN JAIL! (They sure won't ram a 80 MPH Chevy into anyone in there!)

Leave the law-abiding folks alone!  ANOTHER great concept!  And totally in accordance with the spirit that led to the foundation of the US....and that pesky Constitution!

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Igloo

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2000, 05:50:00 PM »
Guns are designed to kill, be it humans beings or not.  Cars are not.  Cars are very rarely used to murder someone.  Guns are frequently used.  Driving a car has restrictions, laws and regulations bound by both the criminal code and state law.  The ownership of guns is much more flexable, sad but true.

What is the obsession with guns?  Why do people feel they are no longer safe without them?? It is the very fact that everyone has them due to their insecurity and lack of education that makes it so dangerous.

A rife for hunting? Fine, although I don't agree with the concept of hunting for sport, I have no problem with this considering most hunters are educated enough to comprehend the potential danger with their firearms.

Why own a handgun if not for the specific purpose of using it on another human being? It is therefore obvious, or should be, that the responsiblity of owning handguns is much larger than a lot of people are aware of.  Serious regulations should be set in place to regulate the number of handguns in the public, and only those qualified to own such weapons should take on the responsibility.  Passing a law to regulate gun ownership does not violate your right to bear arms.

I'm not saying we should outlaw guns.  The flow and quantity of guns is only one factor of this very serious problem.  The other factor is lack of education and personable responsibility and accountablity.

Once again, I ask this question.

Will more people die if gun ownership is seriously regulated?  If you answer no, then is that not a good enough reason to regulate??

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Offline Dowding

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2000, 06:57:00 PM »
I'm sick of guns and discussing them. But...

I read this argument a couple of months ago. Perhaps without relaxed gun laws Lennon would not have died. Sure, that nutter would have tried to kill him anyway, say with a knife. But a knife wound is often not as critical as gunshot wound. Reason I say this, is that someone tried to kill Harrison last year in the UK - they used a knife (since getting a gun if your an average person is very difficult). Despite multiple stab wounds he survived. In the States, I'm sure a gun would have been used instead of a knife - perhaps the result would have been different.

Have fun guys   .

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-04-2000).]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

funked

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2000, 07:57:00 PM »
Dowding, unlike your Kingdom, our Union does not consider the welfare of the Beatles when enacting legislation.  

Offline CavemanJ

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2000, 12:10:00 AM »
Toad if you ever run for President you've got my vote, and I'll badger all my friends into voting for you too.

Great post, and it does a great job at showing how society loves to run a double standard.

Igloo: you have TOTALLY missed the point of Toad's post.  He's not talking about what cars and guns were designed for.  Read the first paragraph of the post again.
 
Quote
Well, yet again some keep trying to blame inanimate objects for the actions of the human beings that use those objects. Thus we get the old, tired “Guns were designed to kill. Guns kill. We must get rid of guns.” argument.

He points out that people blame inanimate objects so they dinnae have to take responsibility for thier own actions before he even mentions guns.  A gun is an inanimate object, nothing more than metal and wood or plastic.  A car is an inanimate object, nothing more than metal, plastic, rubber, and whatever else they use to build them these days.

Sit in your car, keys OUT of the ignition switch, and command your car to start up and drive you somewhere.  You'll look like an idiot.  Put your key in the switch, start the engine, put the car in gear.  You have just taken control of an inanimate object that has much more lethal potential than any gun ever made.

Get a gun (please make sure it's unloaded, ask a friend for help if you're not versed in safe firearm handling) and put it on the table.  Command it to fire and kill the neighbors dog that barks all night keeping you up.  Hell yell racial slurs at it, tell it it's momma was a toaster etc.  You'll look like an idiot for giving commands to inanimate object.  Now pick up the gun (or have your friend do it if needed).  You have just taken control of an inanimate object that has lethal potential.

The key here is the person.  A human being.  Without a human being neither the car nor the gun can do any damage (nor any good for that matter).  A person must employ the inanimate object before it can become a major threat.

Accidents can happen, which is why you take responsibility to do everything you can to prevent them.
A loaded gun in the closet could be grabbed the wrong way and go off, possibly killing someone.  Unload the gun before storage, something any responsible owner will do.
A car's parking brake can fail, allowing the car to roll down a hill and crash into someone's house, possibly killing someone.  Leave the car in gear along with the parking brake, and turn the wheels toward the curb.  Next time you're driving on a hill look at the cars parallel parked and see how many actually have thier wheels turned so the car will roll against the curb.  Maybe 1 in 4 are turned.  I see it every day where I live, and 1 in 4 is being extremely gracious and optimistic about it.  By the way, this situation really happened.  At a BBQ at a friend's house, all of a sudden an empty F-150 pickup comes barrelling down the hill and right into the neighbor's living room.  If anyone had been sitting on the couch watching TV they'd have been dead.  Another time a woman thought she had her truck in reverse when it was in drive.  She gunned the gas (not thinking about why could be holding the truck (the curb)) and ended up parked in her living room, right through a brick wall.  We arrived right after it happened.

Igloo you're the kind of person who scares me.  You're defending the drunk driver's rights to have his lethal weapon because cars aren't designed to kill.  At the same time you seem to imply that I should give up my guns, even though I am a trained, responsible gun owner.  I even have license to carry concealed, and let me tell you from experience that you have to jump through many more, smaller hoops to get this than you do to go buy a car.
Someone convicted of DUI can go out and buy a car the day after they get out of jail.
Someone convicted of any felony will be laughed and told to go away if they try for license to carry.  Sure, they can go out and buy a gun illegally, but this comes back to dealing with a living, breathing human being (and all of thier wants/desires/thoughts).  NOT with some kind of law that will punish me because I followed the rules.

Offline wrench

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2000, 01:58:00 AM »
In the United States the police consider your car a lethal weapon, and should you attempt to use it as such (ram a cop car)  they will shoot you dead. Of course, the police can ram your car with their car and it isnt using lethal force  

The police chief in South Bend, Indiana USA rammed a parked car in town this year. He was drunk, but the good old boys in blue took him to an uncertified testing facility, so his results were inadmissable as evidence. Meanwhile the people he hit were so badly injured that they were on feeding tubes for some time. Strange thing though, they were taken to proper testing facilities and given a complete rundown of tests for drugs (alcohol is included in the term drugs) even though they were parked and the car was off.

I agree with Toad, lets get cars off the streets, only cops can handle them properly! And when they can't they just work the system. Same for guns, only they can handle that responsibilty, and when they can't, work the system buddy.

As for you Brits, Tony Martin is still in prison, in isolation now that other inmates tried to set him on fire. A farmer who defended his home from a burgler? Yeah, he should have used a knife I guess. Then Peter Viggers supports the farmer, says publicly that people should be able to defend their property, and some constable tries to get his shotgun taken away? I am  Pretty sure there was a good reason we shook off English rule, and World Wars aside, those reasons are still damn good ones today.

Great post Toad, clear, concise arguements and the point is well made.


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Offline StSanta

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2000, 02:56:00 AM »
The thing is; cars are a necessity, a necessary evil if you will (or have become). US driver education and stats are quite poor compared to some other nations. Also not factored in is the Deaths per Unit Time Used. Or intentional deaths by cars/guns.

Other nations have shown that guns really aren't a necessity. Cars have grown on us and without thm, we'd suffer at least an initial economical setback.

Also, at least here, you have to get a driver's license before you can take it for a spin legally. A rather lengthy and very expensive thing compared to the US, yet with guns; sign up, wait a week or two get it out. It's my humble opinion that if you need a license for cars, guns should require a license too - some basic training and if a person is not suited, no license.

Which is the crux of the problem, since in the US, guns are a right, not a priviledge. In other words, there's no way of denying a person to own a gun. Provided he has no criminal record.

That brings up a question; if it is a basic right to own a gun, how can it be taken away if you have a criminal record and have paid your time in jail for comitting a crime? Again, as soon as the time's paid up, I'd think that since they've paid their dues, even criminals are to be considered normal citizens with the same rights as anyone else. (well, this is an argument out from an ideal, rather than practical reality). It's sort of akin to saying  "you were once in debt, and therefore, you will always be in debt even after you've paid it. With that in mind, we're revoking your freedom of speech. Thank you, and shut up".

I say go the full length, whatever your choice is. Stop the hypocricy.

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Offline Sparks

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2000, 05:18:00 AM »
Toad <S> - another excellent post.

I am curious about one thing concerning the two programs you highlighted. Do you think the reduction in gun crimes has been due to a detterent effect or due to the removal of a core criminal element from society??

For me this discussion epitomizes the problem in the justice system that most countries run today. It comes down to the nature of criminal behaviour.

In my opinion most criminal behaviour (whether it be violent crime with a gun, theft or drunk driving) is carried out by a minority of people who have such disrespect for others and others property that they cconsider their actions and needs above all others - their rights to freedom of will are absolute.

If you imagine a society without a law structure then your right to exert your actions on another is determined purely by the relative power of the individual - if you steal my car and I have more power by having a gun then I shoot you, get my car back. If you steal my car and have more power by having a gun and shoot me I loose my car and my life. It's simple survival of the fitest and personal rights do not exist.

We have decided however that we need a law structure in place that lays out rules and behaviour standards that determine what sort of quality of life we have in our comunities and the basis of ALL these laws and rules is the mutual respect of the other people in the society - this is the core of our law structures - respect.[/i]

Your rights to live in that society are dependant on your responsibilty to maintain your respect for others - if you cannot respect the others in your society then you are not going to understand or accept the laws that define what is the minimum level of respect and so are going to ignore them - regardless of the punishment which may be attached to breaching the law. The detterent effect of any punishment which may be attached to a crime is irrelevant to and not considered by most criminals prior to a crime because that assumes they think about their actions in terms of it's impact on others and possible outcomes before the crime - they don't because they have no respect for the society they are in because they do not comprehend it's values.

Until a criminal can understand what respect is, understand the impact of his/her actions on others and learn to consider this BEFORE they act then in my opinion they are unfit to be in society as they will most likely re-offeend. A classic instance is the caar crime rate in our town. It is public knowledge that 80-90% of the car crime carried out in our town is committed by probably fewer than 100 people and these people go through our courts repeatedly - punishement means nothing to them because they do not understand why they have been puniished and so is not seen as a punishment, merely a part of their chosen lifestyle. In fact they turn against the society more because they feel their freedom has been violated by others.

For me the answer to the DUI and gun problem lies in the answer to how we handle all our criminals. Criminals should be removed from society until they can prove that they caan understand and accept the reason for the laws of the society - i.e. learn respect. What this means for me is no minimum sentencing - if you commit a crime then you go away to an institution until such time as you can convince represenatives of the society that you can live back in that society as a free person who respects all others[/i] - if that takes 2 months all well and good - if it takes 20 years oh dear how sad never mind.

And this returns me to why I think the programs in Richmond etc are working. Five years prison is a longer sentence than has been usual for what has been historically minor offenses. The result id that the repeat offenders - those with no respect for the society they live in - are gradually being collected in prison and so the repeat offenses are not being carried out. I believe that in 5 years time you will see a leveling out of the downward trend as the first offenders put away come back on the streets with no change in their attitude. The interesting thing would be to keep them inside indefinitely and see if the downward trend continued - I believe it would.

For me the justice and prison system - whether in the US or UK - is fatally flawed in that it does not address the core issue of crimainal activity - respect for your fellow man. The assumption is made that the punishement will have it's effect on the one punished and be a detterent to others. This is clearly untrue. When someone picks up a gun to harm someone, or gets in a car drunk, or breaks into your house they are not thinking about the people they are about to affect - they are thinking about themselves and how they are better / more powerful / above everyone else and that is what must be changed about that person before they come and live next door to us again - now matter how long it takes them to learn it.

<flame suit on>

Sparks

[This message has been edited by Sparks (edited 10-05-2000).]

Offline Dowding

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2000, 05:51:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by funked:
Dowding, unlike your Kingdom, our Union does not consider the welfare of the Beatles when enacting legislation.    

Well it should   .

Tony Martin put a football sized hole in a boy aged 16. I'm sure they would have left if he had pointed the gun at them - but he pulled the trigger instead, and he deserves to be where he is. People do not derserve to be killed for committing burgalry, it really is as simple as that.

As for the cars versus guns argument - if you think guns are so safe in the hands of the citizens, why don't you all strap one on and walk around the shopping mall with them? I'm sure someone said this before, but surely you're more likely to be attacked outside your home, rather than in it.


[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-05-2000).]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Igloo

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2000, 07:43:00 AM »
Caveman, you misunderstood my post.  He was drawing parallels between cars and guns.  I showed the difference.  You cannot logically draw parallels between the two.

I totally agree with Dowding, you do not deserve to be shot for burglery.  If someone breaks into your home, you do not have the right to kill them.  You do have the right to defend yourself accordingly, but unless it is self defence, you are a murderer if you kill that individul.

Do you fail to realise that there is a very serious problem with guns in american society? Are you denying this?  Seriously, I would like to know your stance on this.  If you believe nothing should be done with guns, and there is a serious problem with them in your society, that is an utterly selfish stance to take.  

"I like my gun, if someone can't handle theirs, that's their fault"

Wrong, that's roadkill.  Like it or not, that same selfish attitude is the root of this problem not being dealt with.  If those (how many million did you say died per year as a result of guns?) individuals die as a result of misuse or criminal use of guns, then it is your obligation as a moral human being to step up to the plate and do something for others.

A wise man named Gandhi once said, "You must be the change you wish to see in the world".  And rightly so, you must put away the ego, the selfish attitude that is entirely focused on what you think you need and take a step back, look at the problem as a whole and do something about it.

Or is it not important that millions of people die from guns in your country every year, as long as you can have yours?

That's sickening.


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funked

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2000, 07:47:00 AM »
I think you added some extra zeroes on those figures Iggy!    

I do not believe in basing laws on the least common denominator.  To restrict all the people just because a few people can't handle responsibility is unamerican.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-05-2000).]

Offline wrench

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Of Cars and Guns and the Nature of Man (quite long)
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2000, 09:06:00 AM »
>Tony Martin put a football sized hole in a boy aged 16. I'm sure they would have left if he had pointed the gun at them - but he pulled the trigger instead, and he deserves to be where he is. People do not derserve to be killed for committing burgalry, it really is as simple as that.

See in your view, those "boys" right to take Tony Martin's property or life is paramount. Tony Martin's rights to his life and property were secondary. And don't start in about whether they intended to kill him or whether he was supposed to try and figure that out first, burglary turns into robbery the moment the perp decides it should.

You fail to realize that if those "boys" had some respect for another's property, or perhaps even a little fear of an armed property owner, the 16 year old would be alive today.

What I really like is your statement that the "boys" would have left if he had just pointed the gun at them. Hehe, so you admit that owning a gun and pointing it is a deterrent, but actualy using it in defense of life/property is a crime  

So I'll say this, had Tony Martin not had a gun those "boys" would have surely beat him to death to avoid any trouble. That statement is as factual as saying they would have left if he had "just pointed".

English idea's on property and life haven't changed in over 200 years.

Wrench
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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2000, 10:00:00 AM »
   
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Originally posted by Wrench:

See in your view, those "boys" right to take Tony Martin's property or life is paramount. Tony Martin's rights to his life and property were secondary.

No - those 'boys' had no right to take the property of anyone, something called the law states that very clearly. Similarly, the law states that you cannot use unnecessary force to protect property or yourself.

   
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You fail to realize that if those "boys" had some respect for another's property, or perhaps even a little fear of an armed property owner, the 16 year old would be alive today.

What I really like is your statement that the "boys" would have left if he had just pointed the gun at them. Hehe, so you admit that owning a gun and pointing it is a deterrent, but actualy using it in defense of life/property is a crime.    

Hehe - What you fail to realize is that Tony Martin was a farmer; it common knowledge that farmers have shotguns. ALL the farmers I've ever known carry shotguns. So Tony Martin being armed didn't act as a deterrent did it?

   
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So I'll say this, had Tony Martin not had a gun those "boys" would have surely beat him to death to avoid any trouble. That statement is as factual as saying they would have left if he had "just pointed".

The thing is, most normal people find it very difficult to read the mind of another individual. Or do you mean that they looked like they would beat him to death? That legally justifies killing someone, does it? Pointing the gun was jusitified and defensible legally, pulling the trigger was not.

   
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English idea's on property and life haven't changed in over 200 years.

Thank god American ideas on life have changed - or otherwise you'd still be defending institutionalized racism and refusing the vote based on colour of skin, well into 21st century.

I don't know where you get your history from, but I suggest you do a bit more reseach. There has been many changes to the legal and governmental institutions in the last two hundred years. However, I don't advocate that the UK is some kind of paradise, where their is no injustice, by the way - there is always room for improvement.




[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-05-2000).]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline wrench

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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2000, 11:06:00 AM »
>The thing is, most normal people find it very difficult to read the mind of another individual. Or do you mean that they looked like they would beat him to death? That legally justifies killing someone, does it? Pointing the gun was jusitified and defensible legally, pulling the trigger was not.

And that is where we part ways, why do I (or Tony Martin) have to determine what is in a crimminals mind while they are commiting a crime?

You said "I'm sure they would have left if he had pointed the gun at them" - so YOU can read the minds of other people? Wow!

>Hehe - What you fail to realize is that Tony Martin was a farmer; it common knowledge that farmers have shotguns. ALL the farmers I've ever known carry shotguns. So Tony Martin being armed didn't act as a deterrent did it?

But it did, as soon as he shot one of the perps the crime was over! So ownership did deter them in the end. If you ask me (but I can't read minds as well as you do), those boys were EMPOWERED with the knowledge that he could not use lethal force to protect his property. Maybe the next hoodlum will think on that before they rob..er burglarize another english farmer eh?

>Similarly, the law states that you cannot use unnecessary force to protect property or yourself.

The law is too vague and the wording is open to interpretation, what is unnecessary force? A better, clearer law would be "you cannot kill another human being in defense of your property or person." That is real clear, and that's what your saying.


>Thank god American ideas on life have changed - or otherwise you'd still be defending institutionalized racism and refusing the vote based on colour of skin, well into 21st century.

And this is relevant to the gun issue in what way? I see that you can predict the future as well as read minds.

Hehe, argue all you want, you guys took a lawful citizen and locked him up because some kid decided to take his property. None of you know what was in the minds of those boys, had Tony Martin not had a shotgun you are about as qualified to say what they would have done as I am. The fact that they were attempting a burglary says plenty about what kind of loss they (he) were to your society. No loss at all in my book. Tony Martin on the other hand was a valuable, producing member of society.

Wrench
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Offline CavemanJ

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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2000, 12:59:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Igloo:
Caveman, you misunderstood my post.  He was drawing parallels between cars and guns.  I showed the difference.  You cannot logically draw parallels between the two.
What he was drawing a parrallel to was inanimate objects and how they are blamed for deaths.  That is what you missed.  When a gun is used to kill someone everyone automatically assumes the gun is evil and did it on it's volition.  They forget all about the evil mutha that's sittin on deathrow who pulled the trigger.

 
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I totally agree with Dowding, you do not deserve to be shot for burglery.  If someone breaks into your home, you do not have the right to kill them.  You do have the right to defend yourself accordingly, but unless it is self defence, you are a murderer if you kill that individul.
So, let me get this straight, and keep in mind I have 3 children, 2 of which are 3weeks old today.
2 people break into my house in the middle of the night.  I hear a noise and investigate.  Looking at thier silhouettes they appear to be carrying a tire iron and a baseball bat.  They start down the hallway where my sleeping children and wife are.

Now, they may only intend to steal my VCRs and some jewelry and do no harm to anyone in my house.  But how do I know what thier intentions are?  They're armed, in my house when they aren't supposed to be, and heading towards where my kids are sleeping.
Two dead stunninghunks for the corner to worry about, plain and simple.

 
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Do you fail to realise that there is a very serious problem with guns in american society? Are you denying this?  Seriously, I would like to know your stance on this.  If you believe nothing should be done with guns, and there is a serious problem with them in your society, that is an utterly selfish stance to take.  

There is a problem with guns in America, but it's not the problems that the media and anti-gun crowd plaster all over national news.  The problem is the lack of education and people not taking responsibility for thier own actions or stupidity, which ever the case may be.  I do everything I can to promote education for gun owners.  Most of my friends consider me an expert on firearms and will seek my advice/assistence on purchasing one.  Before we even head for the store to look I'm drilling them on safe firearm handling.
On another note, I have talked several friends out of buying guns because I knew they were not ready to be responsible gun owners.  All but one actually listened and dinnae buy a firearm, and the one that went ahead and got one bought a shotgun instead of the handgun he wanted.  He figured it would be a good first step to learning how to be responsible.  To this day he is now one of the most safety concious, responsible gun owners I know.  But all of this only covers accidents.  You can prevent accidents at home with education and responsible handing, but those won't stop crime.
Take the guns from the criminals and they'll use knives.  Take away thier knives and they'll use hammers.  Take away thier hammers and they'll use bricks.  If a person wants a weapon bad enough, they'll find or fabricate one.

Toad, can you find how many/what percentage of those gun deaths were perpetrators shot by police officers and what percentage were accidental shootings?

 
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"I like my gun, if someone can't handle theirs, that's their fault"

Wrong, that's roadkill.  Like it or not, that same selfish attitude is the root of this problem not being dealt with.  If those (how many million did you say died per year as a result of guns?) individuals die as a result of misuse or criminal use of guns, then it is your obligation as a moral human being to step up to the plate and do something for others.
I DO step up and make it my obligation to do something for others.  I educate people who know absolutely nothing about guns on safe gun handling.  Out of all my friends I've helped over the last 10 years only 2 have had accidents (1 accident each), and both were non-fatal, and I was with each one when he made his goof.  One was extenuating circumstances, which led to an accidental discharge and a 9mm slug going through my right calf.  I'll tell ya the story someday.  The other was just plain stupidity, which resulted in a .357mag slug punching a hole in a plaster ceiling, rapidly followed by a slap to the back of head.

But you seem to think that's not enough.  You give the impression that you think I should lead the charge and collect all of my friends guns and turn them in to be destroyed.

 
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A wise man named Gandhi once said, "You must be the change you wish to see in the world".  And rightly so, you must put away the ego, the selfish attitude that is entirely focused on what you think you need and take a step back, look at the problem as a whole and do something about it.

Or is it not important that millions of people die from guns in your country every year, as long as you can have yours?

See above for my spiel on educating people.  that's the change I wish to see the in the world.  Education on safe firearm handling and people being responsible for their own actions.
You want mandatory fire arm training before you can purchase a gun?  I have no problem with that at all.  Matter of fact I like that idea.  It would be a big step in preventing accidents at home.  The course should cover safe handling, safety devices (safes/trigger locks/etc), and touch on shooting (make sure of what's behind your target before you fire).  There should also be a bit about how to talk to kids about guns.
DO NOT sensationalize guns to kids.  Hollywood does that enough.  I hate to tell all you anti-gun people this, but you and the media are responsible for alot of the shooting incidents that happen.  Look at the coverage given to Columbine.  After that circus every kid in American knew that if they wanted alot of attention all they had to do was take a gun to school and fire a few rounds off.
Has everyone forgotten that kids are drawn to what they aren't supposed to have?  I know I was.  Mom says "stay away from that!" and as soon as she turned'er back I was right there, doing what I wasn't supposed to.
Guns were never a big deal when I was growing up.  When I was 12 I allowed to keep my rifle in my bedroom closet because I had demonstrated that I was responsible enough to do so.  A year later I was allowed to keep my .357mag in my dresser drawer.  And yes, I had the ammo for both on the closet shelf.

 
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That's sickening.

What's sickening is that there's no campain to reduce traffic fatalities more.  It's an "economic infeasibility" to do away with cars, even though they cause more deaths than guns.  If you're cry about gun deaths, you'd better cry about traffic deaths.  Or are the people killed by a drunk driver not important to you because "a car wasn't designed to kill".  ALL life is precious.  And this last bit goes for everyone and is not pointed specificly at Igloo.